2020 update : JC Verdier La Platine

This is my email written long time ago to my friends in Toronto. They are members of GTAA audio group and many members have La Platine and share their experience with this amazing TT between themselves. I wanted to share my thoughts and experience with them and I hope you can find something helpful for you.
In original mail there were many pictures but I do not know how to pot it here.

""" I am very grateful to you and all of your friends who spent countless hours helping to improve and tweak the Verdier. The Verdier is an amazing turntable, even in stock form it is one of the very best available. Once tweaked, I believe it to be one of the finest turntables available at any price - beating my reference turntable Versa Dynamics 1.2. One of the strongest features is its unique and effective design. Design is one of the most important aspects of any HiFi component. You can extensively tweak a mediocre design and find that a properly designed, less expensive and simpler component will be vastly superior. Because of its brilliant design, La Platine can easily be tweaked to achieve analog nirvana. I have listed my improvements below:

1. Motor – one of the options was the old Teres motor. Problem is, it’s out of production and Teres didn’t respond to my emails. Furthermore there are difficulties with the Teres motor in regards to tape placement on the pulley. Placing the strobe light under the platter was another issue. I also considered some more expensive options available in the marketplace. After speaking with several respected members of the audiophile community I decided to go with the stock Verdier motor. The stock motor is excellent especially with the following improvements:

a) I made a battery power supply using a marine battery and utilizing a DC to DC converter. The variance in output was excellent +/- 0.02Volts. The Internal AC connection was bypassed including the on/off switch.

      
b) The stock pulley was replaced with a custom Delrin pulley to accommodate ½” Mylar tape. The pulley must have convex sides, bulging out in a way to keep the tape centered. Once properly placed it is extremely easy to put the tape on it, it can be accomplished in less than five seconds. The pulley was made to perfectly fit the Verdier motor.


2. Using 1/2” Mylar tape instead of string or thread

Using tape greatly improves speed control. Greater speed control translates into improved dynamics and tonal color. The image below shows the Feickert Platterspeed measurement on my Verdier.




          



3. Plinth Support – this is a big question- to use the original springs or not? Two very prominent TT designers told me that it is not good to use a spring/suspended plinth with a design like the Verdier. Their contention is that it is almost impossible to get the correct speed due to the almost constant movement of the springs. To compound the problem, changes in room temperature and humidity affected precise plinth leveling. With all of this said, the original springs produced excellent results in my system. It resulted in a beautiful lower midrange which shone when playing small jazz ensembles and excelled at reproducing the human voice.

I tried everything, Walker and Mapleshade spikes, ebony cubes, carbon cubes, Boston Audio cubes, roller blocks, etc. Springs still sounded the best, until I tried the Stillpoints Ultra SS. I typically never liked the Stillpoints in the past. A very good friend of mine is a Stillpoints dealer so I previously had the opportunity to try them under all of my equipment (speakers excepted). Didn’t like them in that application. Their effect was to increase the resolution but also lifted the tonality upward so that it sounded more HiFi. Nothing wrong with that, 90% of audiophiles would love it, but it wasn't generating the organic sound I was trying to achieve.

At this point I was ready to order the Vibraplane to try under the turntable. By pure coincidence, I ran into my friend, the Stillpoints dealer who suggested I try the Stillpoints under the table. I tried it and the results were fantastic. Increased dynamics, greater frequency extension, more detail, nicer texture, a great improvement over the springs. This was not a subtle improvement, it was dramatic.

The orientation of the Stillpoints makes a considerable difference. In my system facing the tips up resulted in a huge soundstage but I lost body and texture. Facing down gave me the more satisfying results.

Two additional things I got from the Stillpoints were:
a) even greater speed control
b) the ability to support two heavy tonearms with copper/ebony boards without any problems in regards to plinth leveling.


4. Copper/ Ebony board for tonearm - I liked it from the start so I did not try anything else




   

5. Spindle ball touching the platter - there is a lot of discussion regarding this topic. Opinions are equally divided, pro and con. I have tried both and preferred the results when the ball is touching he platter. I purchased the tungsten carbide ball with the 10mm radius. I noticed dramatic improvements in the bass and overall dynamics. The bass became much deeper and tighter while the dynamics were on a different level versus the stock Verdier. No perceived penalty, just the a aforementioned improvements. The trick is to have very little of the platter weight supported by he ball, just enough to drain the lower frequencies. The rest of the weight - I would guess approximately 95% is still levitated magnetically.The same principle is used by Continuum Calibrum Reference turntable. You can easily test both options, placing small rubber washers under the lower magnet will quickly revert the levitation to purely magnetic.


6 .Record Mat – I suggest this is very system dependent. In my system I tried the Millennium M-LP Carbon, the Micro-Seiki Copper, the Boston Audio 2 and the one I ended up preferring, the Merryll Williams – GEM Dandy RCC mat. Carbon was too HiFi for my tastes, the GEM Dandy was very well balanced with a nice natural sound.

Please note, all of these findings are based on my tastes, preferences and my system. You may get very different results in your system. """"

In meantime I bought TechDAS AF-3 Premium but I still have Verdier and I can compare it to any TT on the market nowadays

Albert,

The spindle head of the stock Philips, low torque, motor....

The Verdier uses a powerful, High torque, low inertia, core-less DC regulated motor.

And I feel it is the electrics of the motor assembly that is at fault for speed instability.

I somehow think that a motor with a servo system works best.

Here's a logical explanation from Charles Michlin (Azzolina Audio): "In the era when the Verdier controller was developed the LM317 voltage regulator was probably an advanced device. However today there is a greater understanding of motor control. A motor acts as a generator in operation and this back EMI causes error in controllers like the LM317. As a result they fall in and out of regulation erratically. There are newer chips designed for motor control which are immune to this problem. There are also circuits of greater sophistication which can self correct speed variations without the complications and problems of closed loop feedback."

@lbelchev Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I believe it is not the only one I have made. See below.

@audioquest4life I had thought I understood the braking action. Because of your question, I took a look again at the comment on a past thread by @ct0517 :

"If you actually cut the thread with scissors I am willing to bet it stops in much less than 7.5 revolutions as it is the same friction principle as the magnetically levitated Platine but using oil instead"

The comment described first turning off the motor and observing the number of rotations before the platter comes to a complete stop. It requires 7.5 rotations / revolutions. This is consistent with what I observed on my TT, anywhere from 7.25- 7.75 revolutions. 

However, when I remove the thread with the motor running ( i didn't actually cut the thread ), I observe about 20 + revolutions before the platter comes to a complete stop. The comment above seems to indicate that the platter should stop with maybe 3-4 revolutions and that would supposedly show the 'braking action'. My TT did not behave as such. The 20 + revolutions on my TT is more likely the platter coming to a stop due to a natural loss of rotational inertia, rather any 'braking' action of the spindle and shaft.

So in short, I am realising that my TT did not exhibit the supposed braking that was observed by others. But then again, having such a heavy platter come to a complete stop within 3-4 revolutions while in free rotation would indicate some heavy forces acting on it. That force is not present on my TT. I must have made a mistake in proclaiming that I have understood the braking of the platter on a La Platine. I may again need to be enlightened.

@vuckovic  Some of your tweaks and preferences are quite different from mine. But as my last post indicated, this is a TT that seems to invite differences of operational preferences. 

Using the stock motor with a custom Delrin pulley to accomodate a tape drive is novel to me. I had thought that thread drive with a more accurate motion was the way to go. 

The most interesting is your spindle ball comments. The interaction of the ball with the platter would take some force off the magnetic repulsion,  increasing bass performance and overall dynamics. This is consistent with a review I read regarding the Callas Audio Mod Kit. The Mod Kit was used to reduce the magnetic levitation forces in order to improve bass performance. The reviewer also made reference to the The Caliburn table with similar principles. 

Finally, as one who owns both the Airforce 3 and the La Platine, I wondered if you might share some thoughts of the two table. I started this post because a local audio dealer mentioned that nowadays given a choice between a La Platine and a TechDas, his clients mostly prefers the latter. He thought that was a pity as the La Platine was as worthy a TT. I would appreciate some insights.

ledoux1238
Somehow the combination of concrete, raisin, and stone chips doesn't seem to be a good resonance damper. I would like to be enlightened.

You are forgetting about the the Air Albert.

The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities. JC Verdier

Removing the pneumatic feet defeats the design.

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re; the motor

the stock motor gearing can be heard continuing after it is shut off. It reminds of a watch one winds up and one of the reasons, I assume, speed stability remains when I shut it off and on.

Your rotation numbers I am not sure of.
Going by memory (I am not at the property) when motor is shut off the gearing can be heard continuing and the platter spins for close to thirty seconds before coming to a stop. When it is running and the thread is cut, the time  to stoppage is much.much shorter. Braking action very evident.

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fyi et al
Before I even considered La Platine I was attempting to build an ultimate turntable with the direct drive project. I went through various stages. The next version would have replaced the Technics square casing with a Denon circular one. But then I discovered thread drive with the modded - VPI TNT.
Decoupling of components is important. My ET 2.5 tonearm air bearing spindle that holds the armtube/cartridge at one and counterweights at the other, was already isolated / decoupled with a film of air 360 degrees. No mechanical contact.
The Direct Drive mdf layered plinth with pneumatic footers was decoupled from the platform it sits on with the AT616 footers.  The casing for the motor platter system I attempted to decouple using 4 stainless steel legs. Raising it high with only 4 contact points. I moved to this after I realized all platters/motors encased in plinths color the sound. Many search for the right "color" in materials . 8^0.
The Tonearm brass pillar (20 plus pounds) attached to the plinth raises the ET 2.5 and allows for a happy face loop of single shot wiring.

When I became aware of La Platine, I saw it as a natural extension and progression of my own project, plus it had the decoupled and raised platter system. I could never ever have imagined this on my own efforts. Most importantly, it was designed as a thread design from the get go, not a modified belt drive like my TNT. I was not aware of the braking system at the time.

Cheers 
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