ATC SCM150 (or JBL Synthesis) (or JBL vintage) (or new Klipsch Jubilee)


Hi. My name is Juan. I'm from Spain. Sorry for my horrible english... 

It´s a pleasure to be on the Audiogon community.  

Many months searching webs, forums, shows, videos, "expert" opinions, "commercial" opinions, sellers with "interests", sellers "without any interest"... Hi-Fi world is a long trip, a difficult trip with "shine" products and (at least) a five digit price... A jungle for rich men. A paradise for the new economies. Another "economic bubble"....

If you are a person like me, with little knowledge, it´s easy to be scared...

I'm looking to set up a hi-fi system. I'm using Qobuz streaming service (no CD´s and no vinyls).  

I like so much ATC. Is one of the few brands that have all my trust. They are a legendary brand but most important, they are a brand that goes "against" the market. They are a brand focussed on the professional market and for them the most important is the sound.

I´m really interested on the SCM150 speakers (tower version). I have exchanged some messages with the technichal department of the brand, but I would like also to hear the expert opinion of the audiogon community.

Some questions. Thanks in advance for all your recommendations:

1) How would you describe ATC sound?? For me, they have the best mid of the market. Some people call this sound as "neutral fidelity". Neutral sounds (instead of warm) it doesn´t to have to be negative. On the contrary, is a virtue to my eyes. But in your opinion, it could be exccesively analytical?? Could cause fatigue??

2) What´s your opinion about ATC bass in general and the SCM150 bass in particular??

3) Active vs passive. Most of the people (it doesn´t surprise me) seem to prefer the active version or active sound. As you know, the SCM150 can go with the P6 amplifier (it doesn´t goes in this case on the loudspeaker box). What´s your opinion about this amplificaction in particular?? What´s your opinion in general about the active version?? It is your personal preference?? (there was a nice thread about this item: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/atc-active-vs-passive).  (audiotroy and lonemountain seem to know so much about this brand).

4) If I go with the active version I will need a preamplifier. You will go with Solid State instead or valves (the "particular" sound of valves could be counterrproductive with this speakers that reveal any imperfection and they are also speakers that need power)??

5) I see great combinations with Spectral pre. Some people also recommend Bricasti, Simaudio seems also to suits... I would like a pre that gives some "warm" and musical sound to compensate the neutrality of the ATC. What would be your recommendation?? Please specify brand and model. I want a nice piece at the level of the SCM150.

6) What´s your general opinion about ATC speakers?? It would be one of your first choices??

7) In the comparison with other "professional" brand as JBL Synthesis (K2 model for example) what would be your choice??

8) In the comparison with some JBL vintage models from JBL what would be your choice?? I´m talking specifically about Henrick Sound customs 4344 and 4351 (vertical version of the 4350). Any thought??

(webs Kenrick: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3A0nuJpz3NnPi2luPj41fA and https://www.facebook.com/Kenrick-Sound-244510272314291/ and http://jbl43.com/?mode=f3);

(model 4351: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJFU2QoVI4);

(model 4344: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EfhG0hcTy0).

9) In the comparison with the new Klipsch Jubilee (I talked with Roy Delgado and they are supposed to be on the market at the end of the year) what would be your recommendation?? Yes, I know that are not yet on the market so no one has been able to hear them but as a horn technology and according to some other models (for example Kilspchorns) what we can expect?? Is Klipsch really at the level of ATC or the JBL´S.

Thanks so much to everyone. Your comments would be very helpful to me.




milhomes

Oh my god!!!! I´ve been writing a message for an hour and I lost all the text before posting it. Let´s try it another time (hahaha).

Thanks so much gregm for your message. Really useful. It´s curious that you talk about other options such as Magico, Gamut or Vivid Audio. Until recently, I was seriously considering models like the Magico A5, Stenheim Alumine (3 or 5), Legacy Audio Aeris or Rockport Aviar II. But then, one day, I read the interview to Gregg Timbers on Positive Feedback. It was really revealing (see: https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/greg-timbers-jbl/):

Who do you admire as a speaker designer today?

I honestly don't pay much attention to loudspeaker designers any more. Every now and then I see something that looks cool or refreshing to me, but mostly everything is a rehash of what has gone before and is so covered with marketing hype that I just don't care. I am a dynamics guy and very few loudspeakers take that into consideration, in my opinion.

How has the sound of speakers changed over the years? Many yearn for the speakers of the past over those of today… what has changed? Distortion, materials, focus on sound characteristics?

Speakers have generally become smoother, more 3-dimensional and much smaller. This means that they are less dynamic on the whole and rather toy like compared to good stuff from the 60s and 70s. Unlike electronics, miniaturization is not a good thing with loudspeakers. There is no substitute for size and horsepower. Nothing much has changed with the laws of physics in the last 100 years so what it takes to make dynamic life-like sound is unchanged. There have been some advances in magnet materials and a bunch of progress in adhesives but not much else. The cost of a 70s system in today's economy would be considered unaffordable and the system would be deemed unnecessarily huge. The large highly efficient systems of old came at a time when 15 – 30 watts of power was the norm. Today's stuff would choke on those amplifiers. Now that power is cheap, size and efficiency has been thrown out the window because you can always apply more power. Unfortunately, more power does not make up for lack of efficiency. Today's speakers range between 0.1% to maybe 0.5% in efficiency. (On a good day) 60s and 70s stuff was more like 1% to 10%. With most of the losses gong to heat, turning up the power on a small system with small voice coils and poor heat management is definitely not equivalent to a large high efficient speaker.

It is true that the response of many of the old systems was a bit ragged and generally less attention was put in the crossover networks because simplicity generally means higher through-put. However, the big Altec's, JBL's, Klipsch's and Tannoys of the day would still fair well today with a little modernization of the enclosures and crossovers.

Today's multi-channel home theater setups let a bunch of small toy loudspeakers and a sub or two sound pretty big and impressive to the average Joe. I think speakers have mostly become a commodity and small size and price are what counts the most now. The few high-end brands left are struggling for market share in this age of ear buds.

In summary, “size matters” and physics is physics”. So after that, I focus my interest on speakers with big woofers (15 and 18 inches) and brands like JBL Synthesis (model K2 S9900), vintage models (from JBL or Altec), Tannoy, PMC and, of course, ATC. Legendary brands with models that in some cases seem to be more for the profesional market, where  the design is not  important and the only concern is THE SOUND. Just the opposite to the “minimalistic” designs that are norm  or tendecy nowadays on the high-end market.

I know that the next question is going to be controversial, but I must do it: Do you think that “size matters” and new designs are not worthy in terms of sound quality and capabilities??

As you can see after reading my posts, I´m not closed to any option (hahaha). What I´m looking for?? A dynamic sound with a great holographic scene; the sensation of being part  of the music and not only the sensation of hearing music. Feel that the speakers disappear and you are in the live concert. I´m open to any suggestion…

Yes, maybe they are speakers on the high-end very capables but according to the price of the ATC SCM150, how much you must pay on the high-end to have a “similar” experience?? I think that a lot more.

Talking about the Kenrick Sound JBL custom models. Yes, gregm, I´m agree with you that in comparison with ATC, they are a totally different design. You mention they have wide dispersion characteristics. It is said that wide dispersion speakers sound more natural and direct and that the sound is easy to listen too and relaxing as opposed to the feeling you get with narrow dispersion spekers. What´s your opinion about this and which design (wide vs narrow) is your personal choice??

Let´s go now with Klipsch… To me Klipsch is the more controversial brand. People seems to love it or hate it. It´s a real curious brand. Some audiophiles with many speakers behind them, said that is an “end game” speaker. They talked about an oustanding capability to create an holographic scene in a way no other speaker on the market (including six-figure price speakers) can do. An inmersive sensation of being in the the live concert. In opposition, other people think that the sound it´s not pure (no neutral Fidelity) and also the sound is “nasal” (horn technolgy). Maybe having low profile speakers doesn´t help the general consideration of their Heritage line. Also “economical” prices on the top models, in comparison with the high-end market, doesn´t help… I don´t know. I´m really confused with this brand. I´m agree with ozzy62 that Klipschorns and Jubilees “are two different animals”, but I have dared to make this comparison because: the new Jubilees are a mystery until the end of the year and the only actual model (old Jubilees are not a reference) “comparable” is the Klipschorn. What we can expect about the new Jubilees?? What´s the general opinion about Klipsch?? Is on the same league as ATC, JBL or others in your opinion?? They are “end game” speakers in your opinion??

At last, thanks mglik for your comment. Very, very interesting everything you said about your personal (and profesional) experience with ATC. Really useful.

Any comments, suggestions or recommendations of these brands and models or others would be appreciated. Thanks so much and sorry for my horrible english. I hope everyone understand me more or less.

Enter your text ...
As I read your posts, it seems to me that you would prefer an ATC and you are looking for validation and support that this would be a good choice. Perhaps I’m mistaken.I love the ATC signature sound, even though I have not heard the big ones that you are thinking about. I think if that sound suits you, there won’t be one that you like more. It’s difficult for me to imagine someone disliking a big ATC speaker, in fact.
Regarding the listed ASL100s -It is unclear whether since they were originally sold in London, are they 220V or 110V?  Also, the seller says that ATC replaced the 'power units' - although it is unclear if that is the amp(s) or speaker/driver units.
Agree with the comment that these speakers define the term ruthlessly revealing; for some they will be a little bit "too much truth" and have you running for the exits.
Hi Juan,
Do you think that “size matters” and new designs are not worthy in terms of sound quality and capabilities??
Yes, size matters definitely when you want to have a big sound -- rather than simulate big sound. Case in point: I now have small speakers and they can only produce a thumbnail of a Mahlerian orch -- a good thumbnail, but small nonetheless. The ATC 150 or the Horns offer a more realistic reproduction of the scale of the orchestra.
Many new designs are excellent. The problem is they are outrageously expensive. As you note:
according to the price of the ATC SCM150, how much you must pay on the high-end to have a “similar” experience?? I think that a lot more.
I agree. The added advantage of ATC is the active model, which is seriously cheaper than buying passive + commensurate amplification!


Vintage, '70s sound is also less focused on high frequency extension (i.e. speed) as contemporary designs -- there was no home theatre back then!
general opinion about Klipsch?? Is on the same league as ATC, JBL or others in your opinion?? They are “end game” speakers in your opinion??
IMO, the Horns definitely belong in a hi-end category. The sound is very different than a conventional dynamic speaker, even thought they also have conventional drivers, etc.
Listening to a live recording thru the Horns can be a moving experience (Janis Joplin, or D Purple live in Japan, for example).


You might also consider a pair of Tannoys -- I was very impressed by the Kingdom Royal. Presumably they are very expensive.
Mind you, all of the models you mention are very large and require a large listening room!




You seem to like ATC and that’s a good speaker. They make great drivers and have solid performance but make no mistake they are not a ruthlessly revealing speaker. They have the British sound signature. For me they would need to be EQed the upper end is all over the place if you want revealing look for speakers with a flat response from 500hz -20khz. You still might need to implement a house curve to your taste. The Dutch and Dutch are flat from 100hz - 20klz that’s a neutral speaker. You’re right physics is physics and a lot of power with DSP can get down in the 20hz region with low distortion not violating physics using dual 8 inch drivers. I'm not recommending these speakers they are for comparison I like speakers even more revealing than these.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/