Avantgarde or Tonian?

"I've heard Avantgardes many a time and they can sound amazing but I can also understand when someone says they sound hi-fi sounding what is meant."

I can understand it I suppose when someone says this. I suppose its more that I do not agree with the hi fi versus musical distinction. Semantics I suppose. To me, the music either sounds good or not. IF it sounds good, by any sort of objective criteria compared to others, it is essentially by definition "High fidelity". If it doesn't sound good (ie "musical"), then it is not high fidelity. Can't have one without the other.

I've had this discussion many times with friends. I describe modern hi-fi as giving an incredibly accurate and vivid visual image of the musical event. You can see as if you were at a concert. The best modern speakers all do that. I think that that has increasingly moved us away from the reproduction of music. If you sit in a symphony hall, even if you're close to the orchestra, and close your eyes, you will never be able to locate the instruments with precision. You get the whole picture. That's music and that's what speakers like for instance Ocellia or old Sonus Fabers or old Quads do. I believe that that is what people call musicality. A friend of mine recently got a pair of high-end Kharma. They definitely had an amazing wow factor...but is that what music is about? They certainly offer a sensory experience on steroids (you see into the music) but as far as I am concerned, the reproduction of music is something else.

"I describe modern hi-fi as giving an incredibly accurate and vivid visual image of the musical event."

Agree. At least it is CAPABLE of doing that, in general better than ever, but other factors come into play as well to actually make good things happen (see below).

"I think that that has increasingly moved us away from the reproduction of music. If you sit in a symphony hall, even if you're close to the orchestra, and close your eyes, you will never be able to locate the instruments with precision. You get the whole picture. That's music and that's what speakers like for instance Ocellia or old Sonus Fabers or old Quads do. I believe that that is what people call musicality"

Disagree.

It's a combined function of the recording, the resolution/accuracy of the system (ie how hi fi it really is), room acoustics and how your gear is set up accordingly, and where you listen from that determines the final musical presentation.

Don't blame true hi fi gear if you do not like what you hear. IF you take all those factors into consideration, there is no conflict between hi fi and whatever one deems to be "musical".

ALso remember that the recording is the only factor that the listener has no control over. The rest can be changed/tweaked as needed. Its what you do with the others together to suit your tastes that matter.

Changing the gear is perhaps the easiest thing to do if you can afford to. It might get you what you want. OR it might not be able to get you there all by itself. Or it might cost you a fortune in gear changes to finally get there. It all depends....

So, you disagree that keeping constant room acoustics, source, electronics, listening position, et cetera, and changing only the speaker there has been a progressive movement toward offering a more intense sensory experience, and what I mean by that is the idea of letting you "see" the source of the music be that an orchestra, two people playing guitar, or a chamber group? Do you disagree with this statement? If you do, then we disagree. Most of my auditions of most high-end modern gear (I am talking about $10K plus speakers) reveal an incredible expansion of your ability to "touch and see". I find that to be quite remarkable and most of us like it (we are sensorial creatures), but that's not what you experience in a live concert.

"So, you disagree that keeping constant room acoustics, source, electronics, listening position, et cetera, and changing only the speaker there has been a progressive movement toward offering a more intense sensory experience, and what I mean by that is the idea of letting you "see" the source of the music be that an orchestra, two people playing guitar, or a chamber group? Do you disagree with this statement?"

I agree that it is a key enabler of all that.

I'd also assert that it is a good thing.

But it is not the only factor that determines the results.

AN analogy is HD TV.

The best source material on HDTV pushes the limits in regards to a quality image.

I think there is no denying that?

But actual picture quality will vary depending on the source material. An old sitcom from teh 70's like Laverne and Shirley might look better than ever before, but still be far off the pace in regards to picture quality.

At least with HD video, you don't have to worry about room acoustics although other factors unique to video do come into play, like where you watch from and how bright the room is.