Avantgarde or Tonian?

"I describe modern hi-fi as giving an incredibly accurate and vivid visual image of the musical event."

Agree. At least it is CAPABLE of doing that, in general better than ever, but other factors come into play as well to actually make good things happen (see below).

"I think that that has increasingly moved us away from the reproduction of music. If you sit in a symphony hall, even if you're close to the orchestra, and close your eyes, you will never be able to locate the instruments with precision. You get the whole picture. That's music and that's what speakers like for instance Ocellia or old Sonus Fabers or old Quads do. I believe that that is what people call musicality"

Disagree.

It's a combined function of the recording, the resolution/accuracy of the system (ie how hi fi it really is), room acoustics and how your gear is set up accordingly, and where you listen from that determines the final musical presentation.

Don't blame true hi fi gear if you do not like what you hear. IF you take all those factors into consideration, there is no conflict between hi fi and whatever one deems to be "musical".

ALso remember that the recording is the only factor that the listener has no control over. The rest can be changed/tweaked as needed. Its what you do with the others together to suit your tastes that matter.

Changing the gear is perhaps the easiest thing to do if you can afford to. It might get you what you want. OR it might not be able to get you there all by itself. Or it might cost you a fortune in gear changes to finally get there. It all depends....

So, you disagree that keeping constant room acoustics, source, electronics, listening position, et cetera, and changing only the speaker there has been a progressive movement toward offering a more intense sensory experience, and what I mean by that is the idea of letting you "see" the source of the music be that an orchestra, two people playing guitar, or a chamber group? Do you disagree with this statement? If you do, then we disagree. Most of my auditions of most high-end modern gear (I am talking about $10K plus speakers) reveal an incredible expansion of your ability to "touch and see". I find that to be quite remarkable and most of us like it (we are sensorial creatures), but that's not what you experience in a live concert.

"So, you disagree that keeping constant room acoustics, source, electronics, listening position, et cetera, and changing only the speaker there has been a progressive movement toward offering a more intense sensory experience, and what I mean by that is the idea of letting you "see" the source of the music be that an orchestra, two people playing guitar, or a chamber group? Do you disagree with this statement?"

I agree that it is a key enabler of all that.

I'd also assert that it is a good thing.

But it is not the only factor that determines the results.

AN analogy is HD TV.

The best source material on HDTV pushes the limits in regards to a quality image.

I think there is no denying that?

But actual picture quality will vary depending on the source material. An old sitcom from teh 70's like Laverne and Shirley might look better than ever before, but still be far off the pace in regards to picture quality.

At least with HD video, you don't have to worry about room acoustics although other factors unique to video do come into play, like where you watch from and how bright the room is.

Mapman, semantics yes but over my 40 plus years of listening all I know is that when a system wows me it also fatigues me over time and I end up not listening for either long sessions or at all however when a system lets me forget about the equipment it's then that I sit back and can listen for hours on end.

As the equipment gets better we face an even more tricky balancing act between life & sterility in playback. Years ago the equipment itself coloured so much as to change the original recording.

Now ultra low distortion & noise floors now reveal the source/recording as never before. Great recordings can sound great while lesser recordings can become horrible.

Avantgarde are capable of either view depending on the amplifier, set up & source. This is why as an audiophile you need to understand what you want from a system. If not, prepare yourself for the journey.