Coincident Pure Reference Extremes powered by Frankenstein MKII 300b monoblocks. Late late night magic..... |
Definitely high sensitivity speakers, if you want a living, breathing sound without cranking the volume. Horns rule. |
Yes, Tobias. My new Omega MaxHemp V2's are VERY revealing at low volumes, giving an easy, effortless sound. The amp is very quiet, almost zero noise from the drivers. IMHO the relationship between amp and speaker are key for retrieval of low level information and IN MY EXPERIENCE, high efficiency speakers help a lot with this. |
Another recommendation for late night, low volume: Air Tight MSM-1 Bonsai. And BTW, I would expect single-driver designs in general to do well at low volume, obviously with a good amp. |
Best? No right answer, but my older Rega Juras powered by an Almarro 5 watt amp does the trick for me. I bought the Juras new with my Naim system years ago and repurposed them to bedroom duty when I upgraded speakers. Juras are great with tubes! My wife and I do lots of low level night listening before bed. Their dynamics at low levels never fails to delight me, especially with Jazz and acoustic folk or rock. They are supposed to be has-beens, but nobody told the Juras. They just keep happily singing - efficient rear ported floor standers with great base response, a smooth midrange, and wonderful tweeters that really let the Almarro shine. They are proof that good sound does not correlate to hi expense. |
As you searching for loudness at low volumes, you must consider an analogy of : maximum clarity, transparency & above all, more than enough power to let the speakers effortlessly breath those qualities.
At this point of stethoscope analysis, the wiring loom is critical for the desired balance.
Now the story goes...
Back at 1998 I've trade my Soundlab Aura for the Proac Response 5 forced by a strictly personal & undue cause :
I could not get used to the way that the ESL speakers loading the room. It seems to me that the sound was stacked about a meter in front of them, while it was impossible for me to make them dissapear. It was like watching the music coming through two big open doors. The mind influense of those big panels playing music in front of me, was something that distract me as I could always hear everything coming from those "open doors". The listening pleasure then was replaced by amazement & awe about their unique & unsurpassed qualities : Extreme speed & transparency together with coherence, unbelievable inner detail together with body, weight & full amount of bass.
But a dynamic speaker, can energeticaly pressurize the listening space with a different kind of projection. A more visceral, more soulful vibe that engage my heart rather more than my mind. So, I've went for this trade-off, but never really could manage to surpass or even equal this speaker's qualities until today.
Yes, with the Proacs I was listening somewhat mudded, a bit uncoherent & about the half of what is recorded, but with more nerve & meaningful impact in my heart. I become aware of this preference as an unexpected paradox & consider it as a conflict between logic & emotion. (Brain damage ?) I cannot accept an acquired taste, I cannot learn how to like something, even if I appreciate & realise it's mastery of qualities, I cannot obligate my heart how to beat.
This Soundlab was my favorit ESL over Analysis, Martin Logan, Audio Static, Audio Exclusive & Acoustat.
I used to drive them with Counterpoint Natural progression & later with custom Futtermann 130watt monoblock. Then became apparent the true character of the pairing :
The speed & clarity, the vivid illumination upon the tiny shades of micro details, the enhanced sense of scale & especialy the unlimited HF air & the breadth of atmosphere on every recording were breathtaking. I know you cannot find a better OTL than Atmasphere out there, but I insist about the power reserve (over 100watt) at least with the 2 speakers that I mention here. I've tried accidentally my DIY monster Futtermann of 130watt with the Red Rose R3 (the predesessor of the Transmission Audio M1i) and I've found the missing link : a perfect synergy between them. A very special blending of qualities that many times makes me feel like the combination can defy the laws of physics. The holographic truthfulness was unbelievable to the point that after this session, everything else, was perceived by my brain as faulty, processed & adolescent empty, cold & sterile facsimile, without any credible illusion of the real feeling that can move the senses & satisfy the soul. In my trip to this hobby, this was the most memorable & delightful performance I've ever experienced in my home.
Now I 've moved on SET/Horns only for the adventure of the route & the haunting vision about a puristic direction where the brain swallows the music without guessing, or any kind of effort to synthesize & re-process the message.
But I surely regret.
The difficulties & spending of both money & courage to stand behind the project with integrity (full DHT valve of every rectification, regulation & every gain stage -even the active pre-pre and furthermore & especially the FR/BLH speakers) just don't compensate with the results as yet (after experimenting for 8 years).
So, I can't suggest you my custom OTL or the Red Rose R3 'cause they are not available any more, but I asure you both the Atmasphere (MA1 that I've auditioned in my system with the Proacs & was a heavenly touch of life) and the Transmission Audio M1i (that are available & as much as possible improved over the R3) are workhorses that can change the way of critical thinking & value judgement about audio components. This pair can open new paths of unexpected & new found pleasure as knows exactly where the heart of music is, and always exhibit precisely what performance the composer has in mind. Not a contest with usual hi-fi additives or hi-end perspectives. A treasure !
I wish someone could try the M1i with MA60. If this works, then by all means it could be the killer set-up of many mega $$$ pairs. |
Bumping up the bass to compensate for lower hearing sensitivity to bass at low volume (i.e., compensation that mirrors the Fletcher Munson curve) would result in a more natural sound. But, bass energy is more easily passed through walls and other structure so it would also be more annoying to others in the house, and in that manner, defeat the goal of playing softly to avoid disturbing others.
If one must use speakers, instead of headphones, finding something that sounds decent for nearfield listening (a speaker that is not too bright) and sitting fairly close to the speaker would be another approach. |
George,
You mentioned Transmission audio. I have read a lot about their speakers, but never heard them. Can you comment on any on thier line? Would they work well with OTL's?
I have not heard the Soundlab Aura's, but have heard a friends U1's many times. Can you comment on those. I imagine you run OTL's with them.
As far as late night listening, I really believe the ability to bump up the bass at night really gives a feeling of fullness at low volumes, since we purists don't have a loudness control. I used to run my woofers from a remote control integrated amp, and it was great to be able to tailor the bass to the recording and output volume, especially at night. |
I know that it is a gross oversimplification, but, as long as one has sufficient power, lower powered amps tend to sound better than behemoths. Also, some higher powered amps sound particularly dull and lifeless if they are made to loaf along at really low output.
Geoch has offered some really good choices for getting very lively sound at lower volume level. I like OTL amps, though I am more familiar with the smaller Atmasphere amps (the 30 and 60 watt versions) driving speakers with more modest requirements. I have a Placette Active linestage and it, too, is particularly good at sounding very lively (moreso than the Placette passive, and more than my other solidstate preamp, which is a Levinson No. 32).
As I mentioned earlier, I too like electrostatic speakers for low level listening. Not only do electrostatics deliver detail without being strident, the dipole bass cancellation effect to the sides means less bleeding of sound into other rooms (so one can play them a bit louder). For conventional dynamic speakers, I think Audionote floorstanding speakers and stand-mounted speakers are also very good at low levels. I've also heard small DeVore speakers, powered by Shindo amps, that sounded very good at lower volume levels.
Mapman mentioned Triangle speakers. I also think these are terrific low level speakers. Some people find them a touch bright (they are), but they are not strident and are good candidates for low-level listening.
I have also listened briefly to some Living Voice floorstanding speakers that sounded quite full and naturally balanced at lower volume.
For late night listening at more than modest levels, I use headphones. Sure, they don't deliver a conventional soundstage, but they can actually be more engaging and have MORE visceral impact (than listening to speakers at low level). I have gotten used to the inside-the-head sound and so I appreciate them as a completely different experience. The speed and freedom from resonance (from either the drivers or the room) muddying up the sound is a big plus with headphones. The headphones I use are Stax Omega II, Mk. 1 with HeadAmp Blue Hawaii Special Edition headphone amplifier. |
Wouldn't the amp make a difference here? Wouldn't a high current and high wattage amp relative to speaker sensitivity help out at low volumes? |
I am extremely impressed with Genelec 8020B - very very small pro speakers - and just under $1000 for a pair.
You can sit very close and get a great experience without bothering others - bass response was a real surprise for me - plenty of bass. |
Podeschi,
Just checking out the reviews and price tag for the Beyerdynamic gear, I guess I probably haven't yet experienced really good headphones!
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Podeschi and Torono416
Thank you for your reply and I am glad you enjoy your headphones.
I have never had any super high end headphones, and have always wanted to try a pair of Stax electostatic headphones.
But I have had a few pairs of Grados, Etymotics, and Sennheiser 580s. I also have one of the original Headroom headphone amps, as well as the Grado headphone amp.
And although I enjoy them for working out, on airplanes, maybe for falling asleep and/or a trippy listen of Pink Floyd or something once in a while, I otherwise don't really get headphones.
I don't like the "orchestra in the head" feeling. Headphones don't image like speakers; I invariably find them uncomfortable after a while, and they lack a certain palpable, visceral quality that I perceive even with mini monitors on my desktop at low volume.
Of course, no speaker allows you to listen next to someone else without hearing them, and headphones on a per dollar basis are a better value.
In the end, Harbeth P3SERs and the Silverline Minuets are on my short list for further auditioning.
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I agree with Toronto416. I have the Beyerdynamic T1 and the matching A1 headphone amp and that is hard to beat whether playing vinyl or digital at night. No room acoustics to contend with, and can play without worrying about bothering my wife or children. I have a pair of Sennheiser HD650s so my daughter likes to join and listen while doing her homework. Perfect all the way around. |
Coltrane1
OB is for "open baffle"? Single driver, crossoverless speakers?
This is an interesting topic if you have any links, dealers or more information, please. |
I have the Carfrae Little Big Horn and my wife says that the sound is louder in the rest of our (150 square meter) house than in my listening seat!!! when I listen at low levels late at night.
I confirm that with all the Lowther back loaded horns that I've heard, there is a strange paradox: full body, clear detail & overall transparency across the other rooms. And this is very annoying ('cause the image is not there any more) so, one may resume that you having a full volume party in your listening seat. -"You are such an unconscious freak"-
I suggest you the following:
VDH "MC SILVER IT Mk III"
VDH "NOVA"
Placette "ACTIVE LINE PRE"
Atmasphere "MA-2 Mk 3.1"
Soundlab "AURA"
A way scaled down version:
VDH "ORCHID"
VDH "INSPIRATION"
Wyred4Sound "STP-SE"
Atmasphere "MA-1 Mk3.1"
Transmission Audio "M1i"
Beware for the bright or ringing fault detail and allways look for the maximum clarity, inner calmness & EFFORTLESS (once again)!!! expression.
George
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A good pair of headphones (such as the Beyerdynamic T1 or Senn HD800) and a dedicated headphone amp. |
Hawthorne Audio OB's driven by a simple 10 watt SET 300b integrated. Hands down, the most crystal clear presentation...I know because I'm having to listen late at night while the my other half is sleeping. |
Triangle Titus XS or Comete won't break the bank and are exceptional low volume speakers if not quite the "best". |
Mentioning brand names will not make sense, as it will be the synergy that would please "your" ears.
I would look into many highly regarded components, known for the above. Need to make sure you have good AC as well. Cables, isolation stands make sense.
For the speakers it depends if you want near field, for which a highly regarded monitor should work. But if you are picky, then a very large speaker with a lot of "surface" area can probably deliver the presense without getting too loud.
Or you can say hell with it and go with headphones, and a good amp. There is a new component out there which will stimulate your speakers/room for you though the headphones, so you can listen at normal volumes, and still get the feel of real stereo. |
Deadlyvj
Good point, so what would you suggest? |
The best bet would actually be the source and premap.
Some thing that will have extremely low noise, superior dynamics and low level linearity. Amps that will give a heafty dose of power/current likewise. |
No, its not SEO, but CEC or Corrupt Editorial Content.
Thank you,
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Or alternatively, it's just a popular site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PageRank |
Cwlondon, its called Search Engine Optimization. SEO |
Regarding First Watt, this is by Nelson Pass of Pass Labs who is a pretty well known designer.
Audition pairs of the Zu Soul have been requested by three different reviewers who contribute to Stereophile. Also, the Zu Essence was featured on the cover of the Oct 2009 issue of Stereophile. Zu products have been reviewed favorably by Stereophile, Tone, 6moons, Positive Feedback, Soundstage, StereoTimes, and a few others. Perhaps not mainstream, but not unknown.
Sorry if it isn't one of the well known brands, take it or leave it I guess. Would suggest in the future that you add the caveat that you must have heard of it, must have a broad dealer network, no non-mainstream suggestions, etc. |
Wisynet, wow I thought I was pretty familiar with most audio brands and components, but off the top of my head, the "Zu Soul Superfly" might not have been on my short list with say, Proacs, Harbeths and Quads.
Just curious - does anyone have any idea why every time I Google a wackily named audio component that someone is raving about, one of the first hits is invariably www.6moons.com?
Glad to see others are interested in the late night "application" and thank you for replies so far.
Regards,
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Zu Soul Superfly with First Watt J2 amplifier. Everything comes alive at fairly low volume. |
I just got the newest set of TSM-Xmr speakers and I don't believe I've ever heard a speaker sound this good at lower volumes. Many years ago I owned a set of Royd speakers which had some of this ability, but these are even better.
Rob |
I have only owned around 6 different high end speakers but the Verity Audio Parsifal Encores which I got a few weeks ago are by far the best for your late night "application". I have the precise same need, since my private listening time is 11pm - 1am when the whole house is asleep. I use 200wpc class a poweramps to drive them. |
Massive hi-eff horns systems I can adjust these to sound full and loud at listening position without bothering others. |
Hey Audiofeil, you are always so careful not to mention products that you carry in order to avoid any appearance of shilling but The Audio Note AN-E speakers are pretty hard to beat with a nice tube setup. I have had several pair of Harbeths in my room and sound very nice but, in my opinion, require a little volume to feel alive. I'm not bashing Harbeth, love em. My pick is the Audio Note speaker. |
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My Merlin TSM-MXE's sound terrific at low volumes which is very important for my late night listening in my apartment. |
I just sold a pair of Zu Essence and the first thing I noticed going to my new pair was that they don't have that EFFORTLESS sound that the Essence's had. Retrieval of low-level detail was astonishing with the Essence and I think that is what makes late-night listening (or in my case VERY early morning listening), enjoyable. Yes, they are 97 db/ 12 ohm which makes them very easy to drive. They had so much impact and dynamics at low volumes. I didn't know it until it was gone. Very underrated speaker. |
I have Quads (2805) precisely because I live in an apartment where low level detail is much more important than high SPL and deep bass. I think any ESL will do but the newer Quads are a lot easier to use.
Tubes are often recommended but I prefer my Pass Aleph 30 to the two tub amps I have tried. Later versions of this or the XA30 should work nicely. |
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Quads, especially the 57.
best,
Tom |
I like certain higher efficiency horn systems for very good low level clarity and "jump" (dynamics). But, one has to like horn sound to begin with or find the relatively few such systems that don't have as much of horn coloration or assemble a system from parts.
For more conventional systems I think you should look at something like the Reference 3A (someone mentioned it above), perhaps a classic box-type Spendor (not their floorstanding speakers) or Audionote speakers.
Electrostatic speakers, such as Quads, sound really good at low volume because of their clarity and their speed (good at small dynamic changes). They also have the advantage of being dipole speakers. With dipoles, there is a back wave that is in opposite phase to the front wave. The two waves tend to cancel out at the sides and significantly less energy is put out into the room outside of where the speakers are aimed. When I changed from electrostatic speakers to my current dynamic system (horn midrange, cone woofer, bullet-type tweeter) I was surprised at how much louder was the leakage into other rooms. Magnepans (planar magnetic) are also dipoles, but, they tend to need to be played a little bit louder before the music starts to "jump" so I don't know if they would work for you (but otherwise, they are terrific sounding and not too expensive). |
I think that in generally a speaker that is not laid back and perhaps even forward sound better at low volume. Not to much bass either. If the bass is tipped up or heavy then the highs can sound tipped down and lost at low volume. Also heavy bass tends to wake up neighbors. Mine tend to get angry and have NRA stickers on their car. That combo can ruin a good listening session.
Dealer disclaimer: I am a dealer for Sonist, deHavilland, Esoteric and Kubala-Sosna |
I see what you mean, Rrog, but you know, if the room is DEAD silent, the level needed for good sound decreases dramatically.
Late at night, when I can hear a single car pass on the main street 3 blocks away, that is when you can hear far into the music. And do so at a level that won't disturb a sleeping person in the next room....... |
There is no such thing as magical late night, low level listening with speakers. All systems have a volume where they really start to shine and it is not at a low volume. Headphones may be what you need or for whoever you are inquiring for. |
I use my Merrill single drivers all day long as computer speakers. Great with low level listening. The other advantage of small single driver speakers is there really is a lack of bass to disturb others at night. |
Quads. IME, I disagree with the Harbeth recommendations. |
I FACE my panels at one another and sit between 'em.
It's like wearing 'ear speakers', but without anything clamped to my head.
Maggie Magic is alive and well even at 0-dark thirty is a quiet house. |
Harbeth SHL5 that I owned were fine but the Living Voice OBX-RW that I own now are much more resolved and balanced at low level listening. |
AKG K1000 "earspeakers".
If you want real speakers, I would try very high sensitivity speakers (preferably horns). |
I agree with Beavis, I've gone from Vandersteens to Magnepan 3.6r's and both needed at least 85+db spl to sound dynamic with my Classe 400 watt amp.
After listening to speakers with no crossovers with high efficiency along with tube amplification there is no going back.My ears thank me for it.
Check out the Zu Audio speakers as they might do well with the gear you already have. |
