Just curious Kanchi-did you look at my system on my profile page and particularly my Garrard 301? If you prefer noromance’s, my feelings will not be hurt but.... The idler wheel is rubber on steel. http://www.audiosilente.com/garrard-401-idler-wheel-garrard-401.html"They are a bit expensive and shipping"? Perhaps you mean with shipping. This is no time to be looking to save on things. If you want it done right, you have to pay for shipping. I bought a lot of things from the UK, Ray Clark’s PSU for the Garrard, my plinth from Russ, shipping is not that terribly expensive. Hell, I got in the car twice and drove six hours each way to pick up my decks from Greg in Nashville. Worth every minute of my time. |
@noromance I love your setup. Superb! I cannot find the Idler on audiosilente website. Is it pulley? pardon my ignorance. Pls elaborate on SPH and platter. My platter has no markings.
Would you have given it to Jim for cleaning? (I know you used audiograil) They are a bit expensive and shipping.
What are the things below the spikes on the slate plinth. Where did you get the spikes. I like the look.
Thanks to you and everyone who has posted in this thread. Its really fun! |
I second @fsonicsmith comment about refurbishment. A full strip down and rebuild is the way to go. check out Matt Taylor of AudioGrail. On the slate vs wood... while I have 401s not 301s, my experience may be helpful. I found the slate to have a little more glare than the wood plinth. That is, until I put the slate on 3" maple. The slate plinth is amazing at extracting detail and dynamics. The wood plinth a little less so. And because it’s wood, there is a somewhat woody tone compared to the slate. Go with the slate if you want to extract as much info as possible. Ask Jim what he thinks. Note that my slate version has considerable mods as outlined above. Nevertheless, I've been on this ride for a few years now, starting with an old dirty 401 for $700 to what I have today. |
Kanchi;
First, to respond to your response to Chakster, I have a 12" Cocobolo Reed 3P on my Thorens TD124. It is not a high mass arm. Reed markets the different woods as having different masses and there is both an element of truth and an element of misleading marketing there. All of the Reed 3P's regardless of choice of wood are medium mass afaik. Every cartridge I have mounted on my 12" Cocobolo has absolutely sang-including my two Benz Glider LO's which frankly never sounded good on three different VPI arms I used to own. I am currently using an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze on that arm and it sounds great.
Now as to plinths. Of course Oswald Mills is going to tell you that there granite plinth is best. I believe they will also sell you a cast iron plinth that got press in S'Phile not long ago-though that may only be for the SP10. You read that constrained layer damping is not a good idea for Garrard? Well, how do I respond to that? No offense but you can read all kinds of things on any subject-but they are often not true. Plus, there is no right or wrong. It is a matter of taste. Do you want your Garrard 301 to sound fast, clean, and sterile (admittedly this is somewhat of an exaggeration but I need to express characteristics associated with such high mass inert plinth materials mated to the 301) or do you want it to do the best possible job conveying tone and texture?
I will give you an analogy; take a look at Jason Victor Serinus's system and his reviews in Stereophile and compare it to Art Dudley's. Or go listen to a system with Magico's powered by CH Precision electronics and compare it to an all-Audio Note UK system. There is no "perfect", there is no "correct" and there is no "does everything the best". You have to choose what you want and what you are willing to give up. Just as with loudspeakers to use yet another analogy. You can't have it all. |
@chakster which TT do you use? Thanks for all the suggestions and combos. I will start looking for them on hifishark All linked pictures above are my own, so i use all those tonearms. Reed 3p "12 and Schick "12 was on Technics SP-10 mkII as you can see. My main turntables right now are two Luxman PD-444, here you can see FR-64fx with FR 7fz on the right side. Most 301 users suggest high mass and low compliance carts. If they are cheap and best, then its a win win. It’s a classic combination for Garrard, Ikeda and FR tonearms are about $2-3000 each depends on condition. For low compliance cartridges i doubt you can find anything better even for higher price. But i think Tomas Schick "12 is under $1500 new, very elegant tonearm designed for low compliance cartridges like SPU. |
@kanchi647 I have two Jim Campbell plinths. Slate and birch-ply. Both AudioGrail 401 tables. One early twin spark, the other later. Look at my system in my profile. Go with 12" tonearms. Make sure you replace the idler with an AudioSilente one and look to replacing the bearing with a SPH. I’ve also replaced the platter. All this has brought the performance to a level unrecognizable from the original. |
@fsonicsmith please help me understand. I have read both sides of wood vs granite plinths. They say shindo is the best which is layered cherry. Then peakhifi sells granite plinths and Oswald Millls Audio made granite plinths and I spoke with the owner and he swears by it. I went with granite bcos of the logic of not coloring the sound by the TT and keep it neutral. However I like the idea of complimentary components as well. Then I read CLD is not a good idea for garrard. I am very open minded.
What tonearm and cartridge do you use. Did you upgrade the plinth and bearings? Thanks |
@chakster Thank you for the high mass tonearm suggestions. I am not 100% sure if I have to go the high mass tonearm route. Most 301 users suggest high mass and low compliance carts. If they are cheap and best, then its a win win.
This is all new to me. There are so many variables and I am trying to get as much info as possible. Thanks again. |
I have gone down this route. I have a restored Thorens TD124 and Garrard 301 rimless grease bearing. First, I echo Millercarbon and Chakster, though I lack the experience Chakster has with a wide range of arms. I have two Reed 3P's. There is nothing more important than an arm that is easy to set up. Reed supplies levers for each and every adjustment. Loosen a knob, adjust a lever, and bang, you're done. Reed has a unique design on the bearing assembly which is not quite a bearing assembly.
News flash-despite the success, the Fremer Video-which I own-is so basic that it is practically useless. Properly setting up a table is not like watching a Youtube video to learn how to replace a cartridge valve in a faucet. Getting azimuth, VTA and SRA optimized takes a ton of hands on experience and special tools. My advice is to hire a pro. That is what I do-Brian Walsh. If you buy a Rega or VPI Scout or similar, sure, that basics will do because you have a basic table. But if you are going to the lengths that you are going, don't waste that great deck and arm with a mediocre to bad set-up.
I have used Jim Campbell. He worked on my TD124 before many years later deciding to have it worked on again, this time by Greg Metz. He is a great guy. His forte', in my humble op, is building plinths. Do you want your Garrard cleaned up the proper way? I mean really cleaned up and restored? There is Ray Clark of Classic Turntable Co. in Wakefield, Jolly UK (I bought a bunch of aftermarket parts including his power supply and have talked to him) and there is Greg Metz of STS just outside Nashville. These two will strip your Garrard 301 down to the parts, if necessary sandblast your chassis and repaint it. These two know every trick there is to restore a Garrard to like-new condition and which after-market mods are worth the money and effort. Greg is an absolute technician and stickler for precision when it comes to working with turntable mechanisms and parts.
I don't want to take any business away from Jim Campbell, but most Garrard 301 experts will tell you that slate is not the best choice. Sure it sounds like a great idea, but that doesn't mean it is optimum. Steve Dobbins out of Boise Idaho is a noted Garrard 301 expert. He supplies a plinth known as the Dobbins Plinth. I used Russ Collinson, again in Jolly Old England, (Layers of Beauty) to build a huge custom Shindo-like plinth with Cocobolo veneer. If you go to Russ' website, you can find a video of him applying the veneer to MY plinth. Everyone who has seen it, including Brian Walsh, say they have never seen a nicer one. My point being that imho layers of proper wood are better for Garrard 301's than slate. The Garrard 301 needs to be tuned with complimentary sounding components, not deadened. |
@chakster which TT do you use? Thanks for all the suggestions and combos. I will start looking for them on hifishark |
I am looking for low compliance high mass tone arm as everyone suggests for the 301. Used Ikeda IT-345 and Fidelity-Research FR64s are the best you can get! They are probably the highest mass tonearms ever (over 30g). FR-64fx with W-250 counterweight and headshell integrated cartridges like SPU or FR7 series is an excellent high mass tonearm, with lighter stock counterweight and conventional headshell the mass of FX version is much lighter. Ikeda and FR are the best for the money, definitely (if you need high mass high-end tonearm). For much lower price you can look for Thomas Schick "12 inch Reed from your list can’t be higher than 19g as far as i know (for "12 inch version with Cocobolo which i have). P.S. Kuzma and Triplanar are not high mass tonearms! And you can't change the mass with Kuzma, because you can't change a "headshell". |
@millercarbon Thanks! I will stay away from linear trackers then. I am a newbie to analog but quick leaner. Their selling point seems soo obvious, but will stay away.
Can you pls elaborate on the One continuous wire from cartridge clip to RCAs.. The thorens I have needs no set up except tracking force and anti-skating. Then I use RCA cable from back of the TT to PPA990.
@solypsa Please help with tonearm and cart combos with SLP05. Thanks!
@sdrsdrsdr it took me a while to understand the difference between idler wheel vs DD vs belt drive. Mine is a grease bearing 301 as well. Please suggest good combos for the 301.
I am looking for low compliance high mass tone arm as everyone suggests for the 301.
@sdrsdrsdr Thanks for the tips about Indian music. Which TT does he use? Pls explain why the Lyra is not good? I am trying to learn and understand. Demo is a problem as I live in rural area. I live in Wheelersburg, OH. I am happy to travel to demo stuff if anyone is willing to show me.
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I have Reed 3p "12, Ikeda 345, Fidelity-Research FR-64fx and FR-64s and i can highly recommend any of them for LOMC cartridges.
If your budget is $4k for both then look for FR-64fx with B-250 counterweight and FR-7f or FR-7fz cartridges. It’s a killer combination!
I also like Lustre GST-801 with Miyabi MCA cartridge in my system, this combo is under $4k
Another option is Miyajima Kansui if you like modern cartridges.
Reed 3p is excellent for modern MC cartridges, but you have to pay attention to the mass of the armtube, mine was the heaviest (18-19g) "12 inch Cocobolo.
In my opinion it doesn't matter what genre of music you are spinning, because a decent cartridge can equally play any genre of music. |
I really wouldn’t recommend anything Lyra for Indian music. |
To add. My dynavector XX2 sounds great on the Ikeda. Good drive, full powerful bass and not as tipped up in the high frequencies as most others so it’s better for rock and your Indian music. A good friend of mine listens mostly to Indian music. Make sure you demo with this music. Most systems aren’t pleasing with this music. This is always an issue for him. He likes his Koetsu Rosewood signature over his Airtight Pc1 for this reason. We listen to the airtight when I come over though. |
Kuzma and Triplaner but I think you will blow your budget. I can say the Triplaner w Lyra Delos sounds sweet.
more in the “ gestalt “ of your 301 might be a Jelco 850 / Decca.
not exactly sure what the Apple computer rant had to do with ignoring basic physics, but mismatched cart and arm ( mass and compliance ) are quite possible in an uninformed science denial world. When in doubt about an arm/cart combination reach out to those on this forum who have done more than sleep at a holiday inn... |
The Reed is an excellent choice. To save money, Reed 2a isn’t far behind according to people that I respect their opinions. I have an Ikeda it407 on my grease 301. Another good choice. Maybe getting out of price range though. FR 64s also cool with the right cartridge and if you want to stay vintage. I do feel that even though some on your list are very good arms, in my opinion they just don’t suite the vibe of a 301. But that’s just me. But on my Kuzma table, that’s a different story. |
Nice arms in your list. What are the carts in your shortlist?
Is it important for you to have removable headshell to swap carts?
Imo this is about getting the best arm and best cart for the respective money and at the same time picking arm and cart that are a good match together. And at the same time getting enough output from said to cart to make best use of your preamp. A triangle if you will...
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Be aware, Fremer like it fast and technical. He's very up front about it so you should know but just making sure you do. In spite of that he also seems to describe things very professionally accurately- something I know from personal experience as the guy actually called me one time and we had a good half an hour talk about tables and arms.
I would skip the linear as being way more headache than they're worth.
Other than sound quality, which you will figure out for yourself, the two things I find matter most are ergonomics and a direct signal path. I would never again buy an arm that requires an interconnect. No way. One continuous wire from cartridge clips to RCAs is the way to go. Next to that I would pay attention to looks and feel and ease of use. One fussy comment and I am gone. Too many fine sounding well engineered arms to be messing around with anything else.
One factor on that to keep in mind. When you hear people talk about the magic or matching or whatever... think of computers. How many after they spent untold hours and finally figured out all the BS you have to go through to make a PC do what you want, how many after all that have the strength of character to admit, I shoulda got a Mac? All that stuff I went through, its not even one click on the Mac. I hook it up, it knows I hooked it up, it just happens. Nobody, ever, said that. Its just way too hard to admit they wasted all that time on a colossal mistake. Same with arms and tables. Nuff said.
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