Geoffkait is the member I am referring to.The one with a little ginger bread man pictured in the square block next to his username.I am new on here and am trying to generate some useful dialog and he keeps repeatedly responding to many of my posts,( I have a stalker),and even goes to the extreme of pasting a paragraph of my writing in his post,to try and make fun of what I say.Then he concocts in his mind and interjects words like "Blue Fairies" I guess in his great hopes that people will think his target is the one coming from la la land.At the end of his posting to me (I have never written him),he also comes up with something extremely sarcastic,with grand hopes of discrediting or psychologically traumatizing All that from a Gingerbread "boy". Why Don't you leave people alone on here and put on your apron and go bake some gingerbread cookies.
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It's funny how some people delude themselves into thinking they are the smartest most scientific ones on here and they bring the supernatural like "Blue Fairies" into it.While the ones being addressed are smart enough to build good amplifiers from scratch, are accomplished musicians on several different instruments and know how music should sound infinitely better than they do.They advise to stick to the facts and the majority of what they chime in with is highly subjective and not near facts.They pretend to be scientifically astute.When I was reading "Science & Method" and George Gamov's "One Two Three..Infinity", before I was 20 years old they were probably absorbed in"Archie" and "Scooby Door" comic books.Why pick on people on here.Do you have a problem? I think so.
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I read an article, not related to audio, where an audiologist said that if you gave him 10 people with identical hearing profiles, all 10 would want their hearing aids adjusted differently. No two people hear the same. |
Cleeds - good question - how to diminish the «I know better than you» guru factor'. The «collective» power of Audiogon is what makes it interesting for me. I wish the proportion of people who actually listen before judging would be better, but all in all, it works. |
2psyop
I have mentioned a very inportant fact here before when evaluating audio equipment. It gets overlooked at least 99 out of 100 times. Most often, it is ignored because it is true. It is one’s own hearing ability. A great many of us audiophiles and audiofools have hearing LOSS. Mainly in the upper to mid freq band. How many of you have had a hearing test and know that your main listening instrument is working properly???
It would not surprise me, if 10 people assembled together for a hearing audition and evaluation session and they did not agree on what sounded best. Chances are good, they don’t all hear well. Some have hearing loss.
>>>>Hey, that’s the way it goes sometimes. On the other hand one might argue someone with excellent measured hearing might not know what’s he’s listening to or be able to pass a blind test. And someone who’s hearing has degraded might be able to pass with flying colors.
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roberjerman,
Aczell and Moncrieff? You must be joking and/or delusional.
Aczell was a big-time subjectivist until he lost his hearing, went nuts, and tried to cover it up with his new-found allegiance to measurements. Were you even around for the Audio Critic debacle? As a charter subscriber I first thought that Aczell actually had something good going on. Then he stiffed me for the last promised but undelivered issues. He became a charlatan and tried for the brass ring with those crappy speakers that he tried to palm off on unsuspecting Audiophiles, not even revealing that he had money in the company. And you present him as praiseworthy? You obviously haven't been around long enough to even realize what you're trying to promote.
As to Moncrieff, the man hasn't a clue as to what he pretends to know.
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phomchick,
I think you're wrong. My wife and I watched the laurel and yanni thing at home on our Panasonic plasma set on our local news channel. I heard yanni at all times, and she heard laurel. Nothing at all to do with "the fidelity of the device" as we both were listening to the same "device" through its built in speakers while sitting together on the same sofa.
We both hear differently. That's all. |
I have mentioned a very inportant fact here before when evaluating audio equipment. It gets overlooked at least 99 out of 100 times. Most often, it is ignored because it is true. It is one’s own hearing ability. A great many of us audiophiles and audiofools have hearing LOSS. Mainly in the upper to mid freq band. How many of you have had a hearing test and know that your main listening instrument is working properly???
It would not surprise me, if 10 people assembled together for a hearing audition and evaluation session and they did not agree on what sounded best. Chances are good, they don’t all hear well. Some have hearing loss. |
supertweak
Truth is important on here.Most people on here, similar to myself are always trying to get closer to "real"with our sound.We count on truth and beliefs to lead us in the right direction of what steps to take next.If something is false it leads us in the wrong direction; down the wrong path.Progress often depends on second guessing presumed assumptions.Many are taken for granted and etched into stone.
>>>>>Remember what the Blue Fairy said. “Only quote facts.” 🧚♂️
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When people buy something on Amazon, they generally lean away from products with a lot of negative reviews...but when it comes to Audio, Yanni vs Laurel should convince most of us that while the opinions of others may be helpful, ultimately we must trust our own ears to tell us what we find pleasing and satisfying.
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Truth is important on here.Most people on here, similar to myself are always trying to get closer to "real"with our sound.We count on truth and beliefs to lead us in the right direction of what steps to take next.If something is false it leads us in the wrong direction; down the wrong path.Progress often depends on second guessing presumed assumptions.Many are taken for granted and etched into stone.One presumed assumption that I'm glad I second guessed is the so called D'appolito theory.According to his theory if you stack loudspeakers the speaker on top should be upside down so its tweeter is closer to the bottom speakers tweeter.With small bookshelf speakers I cannot hear any benefits doing this, regardless of "theory".Just the opposite in fact. I'm glad I tried the top speaker right side up the normal way.The sound improved immensely and his way the woofer is that many more inches higher up with much weakened bass.Another thing that's pretty much taken for granted is the idea that the top Tandberg cassette decks are the best in the world for sound quality for playing back tapes.There are a few better decks which actually sound like they could rival reel to reel if you forgive them some dynamics and a slightly smaller sound.Tandberg is one of the better cassette decks but not the cats meow.
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I don’t think that is true. I experimented with different speakers and headphones and am now certain that the biggest factor in hearing Yanni or Laurel is the fidelity of the device you are listening on. The result is based on frequency response. I’m betting that 99% of people would hear the same thing if they listened to the same sound reproduction device.
No, wrong; I was in a room with nine other people listening to a single source. Five heard it one way, five the other. And talking to others who had a shared source with simultaneous listening, they had the same result. |
I took the Buddhist thing to mean humility and open-mindedness, not anti-science. To me, the true sign of an expert is someone who is willing to take account of multiple, conflicting views, reconcile them to the extent that is possible and be able to recognize that decisions and judgments are almost always made on the basis of incomplete information (whether we know it or not). In that respect, our hobby should be a collaborative effort- the sharing of knowledge and information without ego. An ideal, given human nature, I know, but one worth striving for, in my estimation.
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Our ears (or what we perceive to hear) are our only way of determining whether we like an electronic combination with speakers. It matters not how much an item costs, or its specifications, if one does not like the sound being heard, then the equipment is not purchased. Items and spurious addons that have appeared of late that opine to enhance what we hear is subjective and buyer beware. These are not cheap and some take significant effort to reverse. I find that posts that flood with religious fervour of a "thing" are the worst, and I immediately am on the defensive. Interestingly, it is these posts that charge the air with two sides, the gurus and naysayers. Human personalities are all different and how we appreciate the information we are given will fuel a positive or negative position. If we keep the conversation civil and centred, these posts will be more palatable and of interest. |
People who state things that are highly subjective are not really hoping or expecting everyone to just take thier every word as gospel truth,(or at least lets hope thats the case).Often its just as innocent as sitting on the couch with someone and hearing something and mentioning it to the other person, silently expecting a corroborative response or the opposite.The natural world, (soundwaves included) is way way more complex than our technology of measuring is,so subjective should definitely be the priority and perhaps backed up by measurements when they are sophisticated enough to concur.When dealing with electronics we are always dealing with flow of electrons and even molecules and atoms.I read a while ago the fact, that one drop of water has more molecules than the number of grains of sand on all the world's beaches combined.With unimaginably small minuteness like that, electrons molecules etc.is there anyone who actually thinks that anyone in audio has measuring devices that tell it all? A lot of very experienced designers will tell you that measurements and how something actually sounds is often nill.Or even the opposite.I think our state of the art in measuring and our understanding of it still has many miles to go in 2018.The world is a lot more complex that many people comprehend.The next time you can't hear an FM broadcast until you stand up in a certain spot or have to extend your leg up in the air and hold it, just think of that.
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@cleeds, thank you for initiating this thread. I agree with so very much of your sentiment.
Personally, I found the creepy stalker and his $25K challenge both ridiculous and disgusting, and lamented the several here who engaged him as giving a forum to someone utterly undeserving.
Like me Peter Aczel lived just north and west of Philadelphia. No one could tell from the black and white of his writings in the newsletter and online that he literally suffered severe and substantial hearing loss. By that I mean, he could not participate in typical conversation with another human being. Peter would normally try to appear as scratching his scalp just around the ear as he formed a cup with his hand, as he asked folks to repeat themselves, and still much / most got lost. I'd like to know if anyone who interacted with him continued holding his opinion on audio or anything that involved sound as relevant.
One final thing, as some Buddhist ideas have surfaced, I want to balance this thread, and say that there are some on the other side just as wrong, bull-headed, anti-social, and foul the waters to the same degree. Hopefully, we can respect each other, and support those who embrace certain technologies and ideas as well as those who don't
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I think the Yanni/Laurel thing, as silly as it may have been, taught us that many of us hear differently from others. I don’t think that is true. I experimented with different speakers and headphones and am now certain that the biggest factor in hearing Yanni or Laurel is the fidelity of the device you are listening on. The result is based on frequency response. I’m betting that 99% of people would hear the same thing if they listened to the same sound reproduction device. It actually is a teachable moment for audiophiles, but it teaches something about reality not subjectivity. |
on this difficult sad day I am blessed to be able to enjoy it
peace
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In the name of historical accuracy.....J. Gordon Holt was never a "subjectivist guru". He performed test bench measurements on all the products he reviewed, starting in his time at High Fidelity Magazine before starting Stereophile, where he continued his measuring. JGH is rightfully credited with inventing subjective reviewing, but he did so without abandoning bench tests. If a product tests well but sounds poor, you're measuring the wrong things. Peter Aczel DID start out as a subjectivist, until he had his epiphany, after which he was a pure objectivist. Peter Moncrieff (correct spelling) is more of a subjectivist than an objectivist, imo. And Harry Pearson was a pure subjectivist, being almost completely technically ignorant, unfortunately. |
And our knowledge of how human hearing works and how to measure and correlate it is not very comprehensive |
I've stated this many times, so why not once more...
"I'll defend the person who seeks the truth but
fight the person who claims to have found it."
As @teo_audio points out, the ear does not hear the same way a signal is measured. Get your head around that, and your ass will follow.
The ear "hears" in a non-linear manner as opposed to how a signal is measured. We can draw correlations but there's no absolutes.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I think the Yanni/Laurel thing, as silly as it may have been, taught us that many of us hear differently from others. Which proves even more you should listen with your own ears. Barring that at least try over time to get a sense of peoples tastes and biases on here and Audio mags to see if their tastes gibe with yours.
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@dill : Sound trumps measurements - unless they're really bad! Why else would I listen? |
@david_ten - very Zen. If you think you are enlightened, you are wrong.
Trust no one, not even yourself. :) |
good thing we each get to make our own decisions...probably end up with similar systems too...I also like how JA has often said the measurements seem different than what he heard... |
@whart
“I think people generally have more sense than we give them credit for, at least when it comes to spendy stuff and their own funds. User preference/bias still remains an issue, even if someone has no agenda.
In my career, the more I did, the less certain I was about certain things. It’s healthy to have the conventional wisdom challenged occasionally. Nothing is as easy as it appears.”
Thank you whart.
Well said. |
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"Beware the audio guru" “If you meet the Buddha, kill him.”– Linji The explanation: I’m sure you already realize that it’s not being literal. The road, the killing, and even the Buddha are symbolic. The road is generally taken to mean the path to Enlightenment; that might be through meditation, study, prayer, or just some aspect of your way of life. Your life is your road. That’s fairly straightforward as far as metaphors go. But how do you meet the Buddha on this “road?” Imagine meeting some symbolic Buddha. Would he be a great teacher that you might actually meet and follow in the real world? Could that Buddha be you yourself, having reached Enlightenment? Or maybe you have some idealized image of perfection that equates to your concept of the Buddha or Enlightenment. Whatever your conception is of the Buddha, it’s WRONG! Now kill that image and keep practicing. This all has to do with the idea that reality is an impermanent illusion. If you believe that you have a correct image of what it means to be Enlightened, then you need to throw out (kill) that image and keep meditating. Most people have heard the first chapter of the Tao, “The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.” (So if you think you see the real Tao, kill it and move on). ~~~~~~~~~~~ Audio is the same. It’s a journey, a moment of now, in constant motion and change. Finality is not a real or functional thing. It does not exist. Finality is a dead thing. This is about life, which is change. For me, my music tastes are always changing, I don’t suckle on the comfort music of old, as that’s when we get into that whole dead thing area... numbers... as a thing that is seeked out to create concrete permanence... is no less the same. Engineers are trained to live and exist by these biblical aspects. A scientist, a real one, a theoretician, is designed or wired to understand that all is theory and no facts really exist. If they did it any other way, the future you understand as the now, would never have happened. Beware the fact. Beware positions. Beware polarization. Beware sides. Beware statements. Most of all, beware the monkey in your mind, which seeks out the comfort of knowing and facts, in order to be and feel safe. That safety/fear filter underlies and controls and colors every single thought, view, and breath you may take. |
@cleeds- probably a fair warning to the uninitiated, but my sense is that most people that stay on this site (as opposed to the person who posts as a newbie saying "I just inherited X, how does this work or is it any good?" and then disappears) are already familiar with the audiophile landscape.
I think most people are sensible enough to put things to the test in their own systems or will take the risk on some equipment that seems to get consistent, positive remarks from fellow users and professional reviews. And, to the extent the manufacturer is a direct seller, an unfettered right to return for refund within a limited time is essential in my estimation ( a modest repacking charge would be ok with me).
Safe to say, there are few posts of the purported guru that go unchallenged here, right? And if you are here for a while, you can sort the informative from the hype.
I recognize that there are certain rifts or areas of disagreement that probably won’t be bridged. At that point, it’s pick your preference.
I’ll obviously pay more attention to a post from someone who had long term ownership experience and has made considered comparisons, rather than flavor of the month or hype or techno-speak. (Not to say there isn't science and technology behind some of this but the harder it is to decipher, the less likely I am to be persuaded. Perhaps I'm technically less astute than some here, but I do defer to those with solid knowledge in circuits, electrical, etc. and they are pretty well known here).
I think people generally have more sense than we give them credit for, at least when it comes to spendy stuff and their own funds. User preference/bias still remains an issue, even if someone has no agenda.
In my career, the more I did, the less certain I was about certain things. It’s healthy to have the conventional wisdom challenged occasionally. Nothing is as easy as it appears. |
Oh that's rich, roberjerman, your name came to mind after reading cleeds first paragraph. I find it tough to listen to measurements. Is it about specs. or how things sound? |
I don't think that's true at all.
I think we've come to the point that most gear measures well,and after that, it's tied to distortions and changes in the reproduced signal vs the original, that don't come across very well in the weighting of a standard engineering approach to electrical and acoustical signals.
The ear does not work that way.
I repeat, the ear does not work that way.
I repeat, the ear does not work that way.
I repeat, the ear does not work that way.
I can only say it so many times.
It takes the other half of the equation to read it, get it, take it in, and do the correct things with it.
It's been possible to end this debate for quite some time now.
I've known it in detail for a very long time.
I won't share the specifics as this is part of the money maker.
But I will do people the service of mentioning it.
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Let us hope that JA remains at his post measuring for Stereophile! |
I think, you will find for everything a Fangroup. Best advice from me, check your sources. Yes, I agree, some take themselves way too serious but on the other side...there are also big bucks rolling down the street.
In all my years listening to endless Systems and meeting people with different taste, priorities...WE all have one thing in common:
Anyone is able to hear a good sounding System in 5s.
Interesting is the reaction after that (for some it is too big, too black, too cheap...you know what I mean?)
When I started, I did need some time to discover that review units, winners etc. did not sound the way they were described in the review. I got more and more the impression, when I trust them any longer, I will burn endless money without moving forward. 15 years later I still have the same impression. I know no other business were so much money is rolling done from people who have absolutely no idea from anything what is responsible for a good reproduction.
Maybe the industrial complex is too big .... or is it a toy store for adults (my amp is bigger than yours, I am closer to live because I can spend more money... yes, I think, that's it)?
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In today's Internet era the pendulum has swung towards the "listening" side. So we have a proliferation of "experts" and gurus who are unfamiliar with and disdain measurements! The new "golden ears" crowd. A sad state of affairs, indeed! |
If only we had the two Peters (Aczel and Moncrieef) to step in here! They were against the subjectivist gurus (Gordon Holt and Harry Pearson). Said gurus having significant sway over audio opinion (70's - 90's era, pre-Internet). Print counted for a lot then (Stereophile and TAS). The two Peters believed that the best evaluation of audio products used both listening AND measuring together for an honest appraisal! |
AMEN! Although I think manufacturers are worse at influencing audiophiles than forum members. I have met a few arrogant designer/engineers. |
