Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

“For those who want the moon but can't afford it or those who can afford it but like to have fun and work with their hands, I'm willing to give out a recipe for a true high-end 'table which is easy to do, and fun to make as sky's the limit on design/creativity! The cost of materials, including 'table, is roughly $200 (depending, more or less), and add to that a Rega tonearm. The results are astonishing. I'll even tell/show you how to make chipboard look like marble and fool and impress all your friends. If there's interest I'll get on with this project, if not, I'll just continue making them in my basement. The next one I make will have a Corian top and have a zebra stripe pattern! Fun! Any takers?”

The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04

Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
Hey Goadfly, why not just start your own thread called Buying high-end tables for a lot of money down at the Mill?

Well, Mucus53, I suppose because this was a thread that mentioned the table before. My posts was like a followup. And the table did start out as a Lenco but shows how far you can go if you strip most of what was Lenco clean away.

Lenco are probably the lowest form of applied idler technology there is and the idea that you could take that application and rise much further can give ideas to other builders. Ideas come from all over unless you shut your mind, hone to party principle, or just plain become purposefully ignorant.

Which one are you, Mucus?
Dung Beetle is back, proving my point, it'd be nice if my opponents were of higher quality. There a bug zapper available in this forum?

I got around to hooking up a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco into the ultra-slammin' Leak/Electro-Voice garage system and I was astounded to discover the system had TOO MUCH dynamics!! And I don't mean distortion, hardening or brightness, the usual hallmarks of overloading. The sound is smooth, with no hardening, no brightness, but still, the sound emerges with SUCH slam and speed it's just too much! I've never heard anything like it. The actual model of the E-Vs is still a mystery, but they share the same type of cabinet-work as is visible on the fabled - and MUCH larger - Patricians (with 30" woofers!!!!). The Lenco was set up with a re-wired Rega RB-300 and a plain vanilla Denon DL-103, and that running into the ultra-quiet Pioneer C-91, which has state of the art detail via the Leak/E-V system. So, I do believe this system will be an MM-only system, as MCs simply have too much speed. That was the vintage balance, which were used with either MMs or rich-sounding MCs (i.e. Ortofon SPUs) and rich-sounding tonearms. Or, alternatively, I may source a tubed preamp, or try out something more vintage, or perhaps SETs!! Anyway, next project: try to tone down those ear-slammin' dynamics.

So, this definitely demonstrates the effectiveness of the "humble" (but ultra-effective) Russian birch-ply/MDF recipe, as well as those older idler-wheel drive machines, which even in this VERY high-efficiency system, with their tendency to amplify noise such as tube roar, and with awesome deep bass (12" HEAVY woofer in a large box) has NO 'table related noise, as if it wasn't already well established literally around the world. The ultra-revealing Leak/E-V system is indeed a mighty testing tool, especially as concerns the relative dynamics of 'tables (the Technics had nowhere near the Lenco's SLAM and speed) and materials. The Lenco, in turn, when mounted with modern tonearms and cartridges, serves to beef up modern sound systems with their relatively limited dynamics and speed. Again, this vintage system shows just how modern-sounding vintage equipment (like idler-wheel drives) is, in the new digital-inspired paradigm shift towards speed and clarity. What goes around comes around!

Ah, and MORE developments in the Idler-Wheel Revolution, or the Continuing Adventures of the Myth of Progress: the latest recipient of the old "create a neurosis/unfair picture of the older technology/machine so as to promote your new product" award (I'll REALLY have to start up the assembly line!!), which lately went to Teres with their claim that idler-wheel drives had speed instabilities which their solution addressed, goes to Harry Weisfeld of VPI for promoting his new external rim-drive (same as the Teres in this sense): "With the rim drive, the Scoutmaster acquires a kind of "digital" (in the best sense of the term) clarity and control at the bottom of the frequency spectrum. Rim drives were, once, common in turntable designs at the beginning of the stereo era, and they were both noisy and not all that reliable - and they were, to boot, on the underside of the platter, not, as in this case, an external drive. The Rim Drive is, for the Scoutmaster series, a major advance."

A victory for the Idler War nevertheless, as all such news is!! But, I wish they didn't feel the need to revive and promote the old Dogmas I worked so hard to slay in the original thread in order to, ironically and in the first place, promote the idler-wheel drives they are now promoting due to my slaying of the Dogma!!! Oh the HUMANITY!!

So, to be clear, I have made HUGE claims for the rebuilt Lencos (which, being cheaper, served as the needed Ambassador to my claims for the superiority of the idler-wheel drive system, which was then dismissed as "not serious" and passé by the modern press/consumers) Garrards, and other vintage idler-wheel drives, and having done such, have put my name on the line with each one I sent out to make my point and each one which is built by readers/partcipants themselves. And the result?? A "sudden" return of the idler-wheel drive by current manufacturers, a multiplication of reviews of vintage idler-wheel drives (and quasi idler-wheel drives, as Art Dudley's report on his now-darling Thorens TD-124 attests in the latest Stereophile: he's finally turned his back on his dear Linn LP12!!!!), the increasing domination of idler-wheel drives of vinyl forums, and the rise of dedicated Lenco forums. It doesn't take a genius to see that these old machines are POTENT, can be integrated into modern full-range system with NO noise penalties and with a minimum of tweaking (apart from replinthing and restoration with better lubricants), with the astonishing revelation that these old machines have state of the art detail, imaging, dynamics and BASS.

Not that the return of the idler-wheel drive to the market isn't good news, it is, after all, what I was after all along: for the benefit of audiophiles around the world, a BIG increase in the more fundamental musical aspects of PRaT, gestalt, and excitement (with, however, a coomnsurate increase in detail, organization and imaging). It would be nice, however, if due respect and, yes, gratitude, were paid to the older machines. Let us bow our heads and acknowledge the miracle of the development of the idler, which was developed specifically to deal with the issue of Stylus Force Drag, which was SERIOUS back then with cartridges tracking at 10 grams!! But, this, it turns out, was the right approach to the biggest problem in vinyl playback all along, the braking action of the stylus in the modulated grooves, the greater the modulations (big dynamic swings, bass, complexity of large ensembles), the greater the braking action, and the effects on speed stability (belt-drives losing power exactly when the biggest modulations occur).

Anyway, Vive la Lenco (An Instrument in the Return of the Idler), Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!
My question was serious but you just ride over it. Smother it with insults. Which is the ignorant way.

I counter that you did very little in the idler movement except call attention to yourself. Much more important inovations are happening all around and it is proof that in this thread all that will be ignored.

sniff sniff.

too bad for your apostles.
Ah Dung Beetle, you know, I used to fight like a demon on all sorts of forums, like you, the difference being that I fought for a cause, the Idler Wheel Revolution which I was trying to make happen at the time, which consisted of righting a wrong: the unfair characterization of the idler-wheel system, and the error as to its ultimate merit and position on the Great Ladder of Audio Being. You, on the other hand, only attack your betters, The Mighty as you so generously call me, dig up dirt, manufacture dirt, misinterpret what you think is dirt, misinterpret the actual landscape (because you can't, being an insect, see above the dirt) are obsessed with dirt, and take pleasure in spiteful attacks, like the insect you aspire to be. Success, yes, but wrong insect, you'll always be only a Dung Beetle.

As always, my opponents, "men", for lack of a better word, being motivated not by constructive desires but by base motives, aren't too bright. As such, uh, insects, commonly do, you've got it Bass-Ackwards, it's not that the Mighty (thanks again for including me) have fallen, but that the Mighty Have Succeeded, as even Win's activities attest, which only furthers my own desires. Now that the Idler Wheel Revolution is truly underway, what left do I have to do? We'll get back to that at the end.

As to your ugly crowing and prancing about, I was there first, as this attests: first there, thanks a bunch for the opportunity to remind everyone. As to the dirt you imagine you've dug up on me, try using your tiny little insectile mind (can't expect much here): 6moons/Srajan Ebaen lives on Cyprus, and living on Cyprus must process many audio pieces through Customs in order to continue producing reviews. Given the volume and work involved in navigating Greek-speaking government bodies, he uses a full-time professional Customs brokerage firm to retrieve said pieces for review. It's his Customs agents, under his instructions, who handled the whole thing, and who could not retrieve the item from Customs...until the review was cancelled six weeks later (may be connected to that 6 moons thing), to the day as it worked out, interestingly enough. In fact, one of the ugliest experiences of my life, which is why I balk at discussing it, but, like the Dung Beetle you are, you keep digging and bringing it back up, your specialty. There's be nothing to help your cause here, so you'd better shy away from this particular topic, as it won't redound to the name of those you currently promote (but will likely turn on later, being who and what you are) but instead blow up in your and their faces. I kept records of the whole thing, as I do of all e-mails I see will later lead to trouble.

In fact, I have e-mails from Win (older than the ugly crowing one he sent me just recently), in the days before he clambered onto the Idler Wheel Revolution I was leading and directing at the time via the Lenco, with the help of other participants, the days when he was promoting his Pabst motors and thread-drive vintage juggernauts. I kept on telling him to proceed with the Lenco asap, and it evidently turns out I was right, as where is the Pabst motor-driven thread-drive now? So, thanks for giving me the opportunity to remind him, and others who have dedicated their lives to being a nuisance to me over the years, that their current status as Defenders of the Idler Faith (having in a sense become me, the man they did and continue to oppose and attack) traces back to me and my activities and plans: the Idler-Wheel Revolution which is now truly underway. So, here's your dirt, eat it and eat well, every victory of theirs becomes, ipso facto, a victory of mine, maddening isn't it? ;-). So how do they - and fellows like you - handle this? By going around the 'Net trying to erase memory of my history of battles (check out my postings, under the monicker "melomane", and battles on VA back when my claims for the Lenco and idlers in general receivbed nothing but vicious and ugly attacks), victories, writings and conclusions (many of which they steal outright), and distorting the facts (i.e. like the fellow about to unveil an exciting new product telling all who will listen that the Lenco is really not such a good machine, and has a truly questionable motor, as if my activities were restricted to only Lencos). Someone ALMOST succeeded with the accidental deletion of the original thread, which at that time was the largest ever in audio history. But, Mario, and others who had grown accustomed to my "Rants into the Void" and the generally positive exchange characteristic of the Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot - when fellows like you aren't involved - wouldn't let it be, even though I was prepared to "retire" due to the ugliness (reminiscent of your own) which was likely behind the deletion of the original Titanic thread (which is why it was Mario who brought it back and not me).

What have YOU achieved, Dung Beetle? Perhaps you should do a little real digging and aspire instead to the Socratic search for truth you claim to aspire to, and read this: The Record. Lenco Heaven was the first dedicated Lenco forum, which as the dedication proves, was a direct result of, and inspired by, my thread on Audiogon and overall activities (I posted often then on VA), which from the first - and still thanks even to postings by such insects as you - dominated the Analog section of Audiogon, for well over four years now? You got anything similar under your belt, Dung Beetle? And that dedicated forum led to another very sucessful one, now numbering over 1000 members. Blinded by the usual spite, as such opponents of mine through the years have been, you miss as well the obvious, the dedication to this part two of my original Building high-end 'tables cheap thread, read it again: "“For those who want the moon but can't afford it or those who can afford it but like to have fun and work with their hands, I'm willing to give out a recipe for a true high-end 'table which is easy to do, and fun to make as sky's the limit on design/creativity! The cost of materials, including 'table, is roughly $200 (depending, more or less), and add to that a Rega tonearm. The results are astonishing. I'll even tell/show you how to make chipboard look like marble and fool and impress all your friends. If there's interest I'll get on with this project, if not, I'll just continue making them in my basement. The next one I make will have a Corian top and have a zebra stripe pattern! Fun! Any takers?” The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04
Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!

Look at the date, check your facts. As Lenco Heaven attests, I made the Lenco a worldwide phenomenon (with the help of those supporters who either had faith in me or were just attracted by my sheer cussedness) by my PR idea to disguise my Idler Wheel Revolution agenda as a budget DIY Super Project (which in fact I was also doing and believed in as well, one of my pet peeves being overpriced crapola), and so lauch it into the general population - as again the evidence supports (First Try. You, or Win for that matter, achieve anything similar? While you crow about a product, I helped change the stream of audio history, killing a Dogma, and helped create and make the Idler Wheel Revolution which is now truly currently underway. Many of the current "captains" of said revolution will sadly be found to have tried their damnedest to stop me by whatever means possible in beginning days, when someone bothers to write and research a real and accurate history of the Return of the Idler Wheel.

To those who wish to launch a new product, I offer the following, now tardy, warning: Don't launch an exciting new product on a foundation of dirt, before a review, backed by Dung Beetles, this is no way to make a fresh new mark. ESPECIALLY don't crow about such a fact. You should have immediately dissociated yourselves instead of embracing him/it. Instead of fresh steak, you now have on your hands rotten meat.

So let's do a little media analysis, my "gagne-pain": The announcement of said exciting new product was by Dung Beetle, who many remembered was here previously digging and promoting dirt, as Mario's response attests: "09-24-07: Mario_b...OK Gadfly, do as your handle implies and buzz off to snipe somewhere else. You’ve become repetitive in your negativity, so maybe you’ve convinced yourself that there’s good reason to hate others more than yourself." The fact he was recognized is indicated by the way the announcement went up like a lead balloon. In fact, I deliberately did not post for ages following the announcement in order to make clear to all watching that something was fishy in the state of Denmark, and that the smell reached many. One posting, and that cleverly mitigated, when usually such an annoucenment would be greeted by a great congratulatory clamouring. The product is the brain-child of yet another [recently-exposed] opponent with an axe to grind, Mosin. The product is made of slate. In a big foofarah just a few posts above, Mosin, being coy and not announcing the pending review, promotes the incredible superiority of slate over wood as a material given secret processes he would not share, and cautions readers not to believe everything I write because I sell some of the products I describe in great detail so any who can can follow (and in turn go on to feed their audio habits by Re-building these Mighty Machines for others).

Let's look at this claim, by the same fellow who cautions aginst believing those who are selling a product: "Hello again, "Is slate better then combo of MDF, ply baltic birch ???" There is absolutely no contest. Slate has properties none of those materials can match. Wood can be used to make a very nice plinth material, but slate has it beat. "What I do know is that making plinth for Lenco or any other turntable from slate can and probably is pain in the A$$ to execute successfully and effectively." True, but worth the trouble. Using slate is a simple case of careful planning, and proficiency with tools. It is definitely not a material for those who do "get by" work, however. Still, I believe it can be handled by most who possess rudimentary skills, and have a few decent tools at their disposal. A $300,000 water jet CNC and a crew to run it does help. ;) mosin"

Finally, the announcement and following (and previous) posts makes much of the fact the review is to occur in the same publication as that in which my own projected review was cancelled, said inept and destructive Dung Beelte revelling in the assumed fact this is a major blow. Do any of the parties involved come out looking good, excepting, perhaps, me?

Evil (to use an appropriate but perhaps too-large term), they say, is stupid. It works against itself, and so inevitably will never completely conquer and succeed. Here is that saying demonstrated and proven. To those involved parties who imagine this is only a thread with no reach, you better hope so, but, judging from the fan-mail I continue to receive, even long after I have seriously curtailed my internet activities (following the deletion of the original thread), this isn't so. Teres uses a term I coined and created to explain how to achieve incredible results from Idler Wheel drives: "Direct Coupling." VPI now has introduced the ilder-wheel principle as major upgrade to their products (as did Teres). A new dedicated Lenco forum has arisen, with membership reaching 1000 and likely growing. There's gonna be a serious rotten-egg smell aboput this whole affair and assocaited products and writings. What you all need as a PR expert, to prevent such titanic cock-ups and blowing-up-in-your-faces scenarios. But, evil is stupid. Enjoy your "victory" all, does it smell good?

Dung Beetle, perhaps you are an adult, but I picture you as an overweight, self-loathing, stringy-haired, pimply adolescent giggling as he posts on his parent's computer, that's how you come across anyway. I'm going to post a photo of myself - for the first time ever as I have always shied away from public exposure, believe it or not ;-) - and for your edification, since you seem to revel so in others', and espcially my, "misery," of me being miserable in Egypt, part of a four-month tour of Greece and the Middle East, as I wait for the Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco. Check it out under my "system", entitled "Waiting in Egypt for 6moons Lenco".

Now, getting back on-topic, which is "Building high-end 'tables Cheap at Home Despot", the showdown between, in THIS corner, The Mighty Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco (with "humble" MDF/Russian birch-ply plinth recipe) with a variety of tonearms and cartridges, versus, in THAT corner, the Pricey, $40K SME 30 mounted with a Graham Phantom/Benz Ebony combo, happens this coming week!! The comparison will be set up over a week or more to allow various local audiophiles to attend and witness the Big Event. Watch this space!!!!

As written for 4 years now, let's all sing along: Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!!!