Can I expect to pay full retail for a new system?

Full price, NEVER. On speakers, for example, what a dealer will PAY the manufacturer at $ 1,000.00, will sell to you at $ 2,000.00.

Keep this in mind, especially when the salesguy will tell you, '' Well, Sir, we hardly make any money on these (give him a Kleenex tissue, yeah, rrrrright) ''

I am not saying they shouldn't make a profit, I am just saying that they should earn their pay by being more than a wearhouse depot stop-over between the manufacturer and the buyer, and at least show a minimum of respect and competence for the buyer AND his budget.

Just an example. Not always, of course, but very frequent.

I figure a 10% minimum discount at all times. If not walk away before you change your mind. Full price is out of style, and shows a lack of respect.

I figure requesting 5% extra discounts per 6 months period the gear has been sitting on the dealer floor, is fair.

So, let's say 10% minimum discount plus another 10% if the gear has been sitting on the floor 1 year for 20% total.

2 years sitting on the floor? 30% discount, and so on until the dealer reaches near-cost selling price if the unit remains unsold. At which poing one has to ask himself WHY is the gear unsold right?

Demos with scratches? Walk away. You can do better on the A'goner buying from an owner who pampered his gear. There are many.

Dealer is snobbing you? (quite frequent) walk away.

With some of these dealers, it's better to walk away with your pride than to suffer incompetent service and bad advice.

Of course there ARE dealers that will provide great service and prices. Just just have to find them I guess.

It's tough to negotiate without a point of reference. On most hardware, the typical markup is 40%+. If you've done your homework/research [as you should have] then it is a half hour of the good lady's/fellow's time and you can and should ask for perhaps 30%. Most dealers would asnd should be happy with 10% except the Armani-clad set on Rodeo Drive. Return privileges may suggest a smaller discount.

Americans are terrifed of negotiating while it is common practice in most other parts of the world. We never learned how! Some vendors are even insulted when you don't! Grow a set and demand value for your precious lucre. But respect the dealers overhead at the same time. A good guide to reputable dealers and their cutomers satisfaction is available right here on Audiogon. I trust that part is still free.

I would start off with telling the sales rep everything you want in detail and then tell him you want his best price. If there are no alternative dealers where you have less pull. A package is always the best way to get the best price. Remember here though, if you make the price too skinny, the sales rep will not be interested in making you a customer for life. Tripper is right on price and potential discount.

Any dealer is more likely to give discounts to NICE people. In fact, it is enjoyable to give the nice guy a good deal. He is the exception to the rule that makes keeping a bricks and mortar store worthwhile.

Keep in mind that on very high end equipment there is usually a lower profit margin for the dealer. He is not often able to give the same % discount on those items.

If you prove to be a straightforward and honest guy to deal with, most (good) dealers will OFFER a discount of some sort een if it is just to cover the sales tax. Just remember that there are any number of tire kickers that shop the store every day who are ready to "pull the trigger" that same day so that they can get a good price. The dealer knows that some of these same guys will not buy, and come back months latter expecting the same discount on something retailing for 1/10th of what they were initialy interested in.

If you treat any retailer with the same level of respect you would expect there is lots of room for manuvering. Too many people simply expect to buy at cost. These are the bain of every retailers existance and the people for whom a very special corner of Heck has been reserved.

Good luck!

Dealers will discount. The better you can negotiate the better the discount.

Here is what I do. I see what I can get an item for on Audiogon. Then I go into the dealer and say "Look I can get this for X used. I want to buy it from you new though but I only want to pay this." Now you can start negotiating and the dealer knows that you are informed. Keep in mind too that a lot of this stuff is marked up anywhere from 40% to 60%. There is room in the price for discounts.