Confused about gain: phono + pre, or just phono?

Yes 0.25mV will work into 62dB but noise comes into it at these levels. 0.25mV should ideally be used with 65dB as the lower you go in gain the more hiss you'll introduce. Imagine using 0.25mV into a 40dB (MM) then increase the gain to 65dB. As you increase the gain the signal-to-noise ratio changes 'balance' so you end up with more signal than noise.

I have a few turntables with a few phonostages. The Denon DL304 @ 0.18mV is a real problem for a lot of stages. Some of my audiophile friends 'think' that noise/hiss is par-of-the-course when using 0.18mV - 0.4mV with a ANY phonostage.
A friend uses his DL-304 with a Naim Prefix and all you hear between tracks is HISSSSSSSSS!

I chose to use the Whest stages years back because apart from the audio quality, the background hiss/noise was the lowest I had come across using a DL304. In fact with their smallest whestTWO which I have in my home/office I have plenty of gain and absolutely NO NOISE or HISSSSS. A sign of a great design.

I also use a Dynavector XX2 MK2 (0.25mV), new Ortofon A90 (0.27mV) and Shelter 901 (0.6mV I think. using various stages.

I've had no noise with the DB Systems stage (which is a very inexpensive phono preamp) and the Aqvox but reviews of both have noted that these are extremely "quiet" phono stages. Both are pretty much "CD quiet" both while the music is playing and between tracks. As you point out, it is a matter of the quality of the design.

Of course, it is always a question of YMMV and I think there is a legitimate caveat with respect to pairing tube phono stages and low output cartridges; in general, that can be a combination that leads to a fair bit of noise once you get into and past the high 50's with gain.

I guess I've just been fortunate to own quality phono stages at different price points but, as I said, IME the KAB calculator is just about dead on. Could be I've just been lucky.

The phonostage gain with reference to the cartridge has nothing to do with the following preamplifier.

What your phonostage needs to do is amplify the signal from the cartridge correctly under 'ideal transfer' characteristics which should give you low noise and low hiss as is my and Hdm's case.

Whatever the output level is from your phonostage afterwards is whatever it is. The most important thing here is gain matching the cartridge to phonostage and NOT phonostage to preamplifier.

Most preamplifiers can handle an input signal upto 8V and more if they are 'discrete technology' types. A phonostage without variable gain output would output approx 560mV-660mV with your standard 0.25mV cartridge (depending on cartridge output variances).

I would just set your phonostage for 65dB is you have a 0.25mV cartridge and get on with listening to music.

"I would just set your phonostage for 65dB is you have a 0.25mV cartridge and get on with listening to music."

I would have done just that, but this thread was more "since I don't have one, carts with what parameters should I be looking at".

From experience, I would say 60 db of gain is adequate for most application for a cartridge rated at .25mV output. I run a .30 mV cartridge into a phonostage with 60 db of gain and there is absolutely no noise issue at all. I do have to crank the linestage fairly wide open (13 db of gain) to feed my Stax headphone amp which apparently has very low gain, but with speakers, gain is not an issue.

With a low output cartridge, whether noise becomes an issue can be dependent on HOW gain is achieved. With solid state, noise is usually not an issue (the one area where solid state is clearly superior). With tubes, getting such high gain using active gainstages can result in high noise level. That is why a lot of people use step up transformers in front of the first active gainstage (transformers do not add noise) in tube phonostages. My tube phonostage has such a step up transformer built into it.