I suggest asking the specific wire manufacturer. I am conservative minded and have experience with highly critical processes and equipment I feel caution and expertise are appropriate. For example, Calmont Wire and Cable has supplied critical wire for NASA among other hi techs. . They have a toll free direct to engineering. I’m interested in what you discover.
Cryongenically treated in-wall AC power wire
I have a high end sound system and am building a new house. I would like to have a dedicated electrical line installed for my system, to run from the electrical outlets in my music room to the breaker box. The builder asked me how long I wanted the wire to be, which runs from the outlets to the breaker box. I have no idea. I could place it as close as several feet or much longer. The wire is $20/foot. So, here are my questions:
1. If you want to install a dedicated electrical line for your sound system how close should the electrical outlets be to the breaker box, or does it make a difference? In other words, is there a minimum length of cryogenically treated wire that I will want in the wall stretching from the outlets to the fuse box?
2. I assume that using cryogenically treated wire and electrical outlets will reduce noise. Does anyone have any experience with cryogenically treated wire?
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Draw out your new room and equipment locations precisely to scale. Consider all equipment you may want. It’s an important project. By all means have a normal compliment of wiring regardless of your hi fi demands! Seriously consider wiring through metal tubing suitable for underground use. This will also facilitate install and allow future upgrade. |
Here’s simple info. For wire, find and buy top quality “fanatically shielded” specialty 10 ga used for the most sensitive commercial applications; super critical robotics for example. For ground information go to the Equitech website. The man behind Equitech’s patents, Martin Glasband, has created products that have solved more ac power noise problems than “all” the other electrical engineers on earth! Mr Glasband is a real expert; has authored sections of the US Electrical Code. He has helped many personally. Also, the most important factors in your new wire are 1. Shielding 2. Termination 3. Placement in your walls. 4. I would use at least 3 separate runs which gives you great flexibility for experimentation in the future. With quality cable don’t give a thought for a few feet here or there. Irrelevant. However, make sure you have enough that in each run the wire is relaxed; do not install it ‘tight’. Be aware that there’s an endless amount of “voodoo” and utter “nonsense” from some “fools” in this forum. They are not well meaning; just plain ignorant, stupid, or both. Also, if/when it’s affordable an Equitech 2Q or 3Q will improve your sound “ dramatically”. Best wishes. Pete |
I'm going to take it one step farther. When I installed my dedicated 10/2 wiring for my audio room I took the time to listen to music by auditioning the 10/2 wire attached to the circuit breaker and AC outlet from both directions before the wire was cut and run in the walls etc. One direction sounded more open than the direction. Yes, it was a major pain to do but I was 25 years younger. |
Not to mention the directionality of the power cord. That’s why Audioquest controls directionality for their power cords, as well as all of their other cables. So unless you can verify which direction the wire in the DIY power cord is supposed to go, cryo might not make any difference or may allow you to hear how the wrong direction affects the sound. There’s also the issue of thermal shock when cryoing cables that means judgements should be postponed at least a week after getting the cables back from the lab. |
I tried to cryo one of my DIY power cables to see what happens to the sound. After burning-in, I opted out of cryo treating my reference cables. It made the sound more lean and dry, less full. One more note - I found that the longer the power cable is, the more of its "sound" is present in the system. That can be good or bad. If you have very fast-detailed-silver sounding power cable, 1 meter will influence the sound in that way more than 0.5 m of it. I would bet that the same applies for the power line in the wall. I have dedicated power lines in my system (8), and they are on a separate breaker box. So my apartment has 2 breaker boxes - 1 audio and 1 for everything else. I kept the wires at minimum required length, which is still several meters. Each line has electric filter installed before the outlet. I think the investment in AC pays off in the final sound. |
From Whitlock’s paper almarg cites above: What Does “Ground” MeanThere’s a lot of good information in that article, such as Romex is preferable to conduit for reducing noise, as it keeps the hot and neutral wires in optimal alignment. https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf |
gapperis123 A few years back while doing a dedicated room for my audio, I ran across something very interesting. It's not about cryo treated wire, but it is about reducing ground noise. So if that is your ultimate goal ( and cryo is just one way you were trying to achieve that) I urge you to at least check out the video at twisted-power.com. I learned about this from some manufacturers of precision test equipment for the electronics industry who were exhibiting at CES in the high end audio section. I followed up on it and ended up talking with the developer a number of times. I incorporated the concept in my new room and I now have the quietest system ever. So I do believe it's the real deal and it really is not expensive at all - or difficult. Oh, and you can use cryo'd wire that you twist according to this technique (well actually there are several specific techniques available to attain the desired effect) if you so desire. |
gapperis123, I have my digital, analog and subwoofers on the separate dedicated lines. At the wall, I installed quad boxes (Oyaide) with dual Furutech GTX nano outlets in each quad. I have a CPT 1800 balanced power on the analog. I have a CPT 300 on the digital. And the subs (JL F-113’s) on the third dedicated line. The sub line was also routed to the back of my room so additional subs are plugged into that quad outlets. Any extra unused outlets have multiple SR MC-05’s plugged into them. A total of about 20. ozzy |
For my 2c's on a very complicated subject is this; 1. Run the best ac cable you can afford. (10 gauge) 2. Run at least 3 dedicated lines 3. Space each line at least 1"+ from each other. 4. Use the best outlets you can afford. (Furutech GTX Nano etc) All of this is the backbone to your present system and all future equipment changes will benefit. ozzy |
A separate electrical meter and utility line feeding it from the street, running to its own breaker box and the dedicated wiring fed from there. Full isolation from the electrical system powering the rest of the house. Local zoning will often prohibit such an arrangement, because it could allow a multi-family home (or home with a separate business) in what might be a neighborhood limited by zoning to single-family homes. In any event - even where it would be permitted - the grounding system would almost certainly need to be common between the two systems in order to comply with NEC. Again, the solution to the perceived problem of "noisy grounds" on an audio system is not to pursue multiple grounds, but to ensure that all the grounds are clean. And the neutrals. And the hot connections. Noise can be introduced anywhere in an electric system, not just the ground. The link that almarg previously provided is an authoritative resource that slays many grounding myths. Here’s one of them: " Its connection to earth is not what makes ’safety ground’ safe ... its the connection to neutral. " That’s worth pondering as you consider that NEC requires neutral and ground to be bonded together at the service panel. |
The audiophile hobby takes big swings from one end of the scale to the other with time always being the test. What I have tried to do, faithfully I hope, is every few years I will setup a listening shop I call TuneLand, or some may remember TuneVilla, where listeners can come and explore different interest of theirs. The doors are pretty much open for folks who want to be serious about coming to conclusions on their own. A couple of rooms are available for the listener to dig in and do anything they want, without me peeking over their shoulder. This last space of time and place covered Cryo pretty extensively. I did this before but was convinced it was time to revisit. There were also some low mass adventures that were fairly overwhelming, but that is covered on my forum. As listeners played with adjusting their cables and other items there was not one who chose Cryo over heat and vibra-tuning. At the same time we did our local testing the same testing was done in several countries, so we could get different opinions from different listeners. There was a difference in other topics but I was surprised that not one person took Cryo over Temp-A-curing. The long term deciding factor came down to missing information in the recordings. And the other conclusion was when people moved their Cryo treated cables from one listening environment, letting it settle for a month or two, then moved the cable to another location, or shipped to another country, the cable never recovered from the first setup. I had several thousand dollar cables loose their performance cues altogether. This happened with such regularity I started to wonder what people did when they moved into a new home and found the music all messed up. What did they blame the bad sound on? The pre broken in Cryo treated cable is a good place to start with. It would be good to hear from others who have experienced this same issue. |
I believe cryogenically treating various audio items firstly has a very long break-in time. Secondly, depending on the material being cryoed, it could work in a positive or negative manner. Thirdly, it's a matter of personal preferences and taste. As in life, there isn't always one answer that's always correct for everyone, especially when it comes to audio, individuals components room acoustics, etc. Here is a good example, I had a gold AC duplex outlet (Firm) cryogenically treated, after a very long break-in process I did not care for the sound of it compared to the exact same gold outlet that was not cryoed in a side by side evaluation. I remember this caused quite a controversy in a discussion on an Audiogon thread many years ago. If 10/2 cryoed AC wire sounds best in ones system then they made a good purchase, if one can't hear the difference (as in my case) they made a bad purchase (as was in my case), but one never knows until they try it for them selves. |
There have been some credible reports over the years from people saying they don’t like the sound of cryo. On the other hand, a great many more have reported they DO like the sound of cryo. So, it’s not like the issue is split 50/50%. Thus, it’s probably best to describe cryo as another one of those he said she said type situations. Michael Green is very experienced so his testimony can’t be easily discounted. There are some technical arguments why both heat AND cryo solutions might work, sound wise. Certainly the cryo process can temporarily make things sound bad/funky (i.e., thermal shock) so that in itself might explain some of the negative reports. But maybe not all. It would be a Big Shame if cryo does turn out to be bad for the sound, makes the soundstage disappear or whatever, which I doubt, since so many cable manufacturers have been turning out cryo’s cables for years, not to mention high end electronics companies like Meitner have been routinely employing cryo for years. So, obviously there will be a whole lot of very Unhappy Campers 😢 out there if this cryo thing turns out to be hoax, which I doubt it will. I wouldn’t bet the ranch however. |
vtech2000 Please explain how to fix a noisy ground.You could write a book on this! The reference almarg provided is an excellent and authoritative treatise. The first steps include checking the existing grounds and neutrals. Are connections clean and tight? Is the grounding scheme sufficient? Often, adding additional ground rods to an existing system can improve results. This is often required by code when other electric upgrades are made. It's also important to have all grounds at the same potential. There are devices that can help with that, such as the one from Synergistic Research. Dedicated lines offer potential benefit here, too. |
I personally don’t like the sound of Cryo, nor do I like the sound of line conditioning, or over built outlets. Keep in mind, I was one of the original "Audiophile" outlet designers. I was wrong! After doing the follow up listening on the "more mass" outlets I realized there became black holes in the sound stages. Same was true with Cryo treatment and line conditioning. If your going with smaller soundstaging, hyper detail (fatiguing to most ears) and an upward shift, Cryo and the other things I mentioned are fine. But if your joining the ever growing bigger stage club, you will want to go low mass and heat Temp-A-Cure treating. The key to all of this is experience, and by that I mean, hundreds of systems vs a few. Once you get use to hearing the Cryo sound, it can drive you up the wall. At first it sounds clean (really clean) and you think your hearing more detail, but the more you listen you start to hear, and see, that parts of the staging has collapsed almost as if part of the connected flow is gone leaving a black hole where there use to be content. Second thing you will notice is your rock collection has become unlistenable, as if the engineers have made a recording mistake. But the reality is you have chopped away at significant sections of the recorded code. Ever put on a recording and it sounds like a scratchy shouting tin can? This means the recorded code (content) is not making it’s way through the audio chain intact. The high end audio "experts" have screwed up in telling you this is an engineering problem, but in fact these recordings are just fine. It’s the high end "technologies" that have screwed up. Part of this is Cryo treating. michael green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
It has been said many times, and disputed as wrong many times, that with dedicated circuits for each monoblock and upgraded outlets you should not need a power conditioner for monoblocks. I agree with kalali that issue could be a separate thread. In my experience, my particular amps sound really good plugged directly into the dedicated circuit with the upgraded wall outlet. BTW the same amps also sounds much better IMO plugged into my power conditioner that is plugged into a dedicated circuit. YMMV |
gapperis123, the use of power conditioner, particularly for (very) high current amplifiers, is a subject that deserves a separate thread since there are many opinions and no final (objective) conclusion. There’s also another discussion around different power conditioner design and their respective pros and cons, etc. Many here prefer to plug directly into the high quality wall socket using a dedicated 20amp circuit. I have tried both scenarios and couldn’t hear a difference. |
Now this is very crucial and underrated by too many music lovers. Consider having your electrician install one or more separate dedicated copper grounding rods for your high end system. Again, separate grounds dedicated just for your digital gear.Grounding rods? This is a Bad Idea. The grounding should be according to code- otherwise all sorts of noise problems can emerge, not to mention outright shock/fire hazards. In addition, such grounds would not somehow filter out 'digital noise'. To do that, some sort of isolation and filtration would be required, and independent dedicated lines provide neither! |
For further explanation of the hazard that would be created by installing a dedicated ground rod for the audio system see page 29 of the following paper, which was written by a renowned expert on such matters: https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf Regards, -- Al |
FYI: I very much like cryogenically treated power cords, AC duplex outlets, etc. I can and have heard the difference between two identical power cords, outlets, or adapters, one cryoed and the other not. In my main music room I installed five dedicated outlets (although I no longer use them all). One of the 10 gauge lines is cryogenically treated and to be honest I truly can't tell the difference. Sometimes I wonder if we don't get carried away with how far we take our tweaks and if some of them make a true difference or is it just peace of mind and hype. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm a tweaker for sure however I can admit it when I don't hear a difference. Just throwing that out there, something to think about... |
vtech2000 Just passing on what according to the web apparently many a high end'er undertake as a DIY project,It's definitely an NEC violation and potential hazard to not have all grounds bonded together in the service panel. You wouldn't even be able to get a permit to install "separate dedicated copper grounding rods for your high end system." ... akin to one installing cheater plugs to eliminate connecting one's sensitive gear to those noisy grounds for better soundThat's not a good idea either, and also potentially hazardous. The remedy to a noisy ground is to fix the ground, not bypass it. |
cleeds : Just passing on what according to the web apparently many a high end'er undertake as a DIY project, akin to one installing cheater plugs to eliminate connecting one's sensitive gear to those noisy grounds for better sound. |
"Consider a minimum of three separate dedicated lines. A separate line for digital sources, one for analog / low power equipment, and one for high power equipment or even a separate dedicated line for each mono block power amplifier if you have high power or Class A mono blocks." I did this and I'm satisfied with the results, although I run it with mono amps each on their own circuit and the remaining gear on the third circuit. I also used 10 gauge wire in electrical conduit. I recommend this too. |
vtech2000 Consider having your electrician install one or more separate dedicated copper grounding rods for your high end system. Again, separate grounds dedicated just for your digital gear.This is in violation of the NEC and potentially hazardous. All grounds must be bonded together at the service panel. |
Several good suggestions here, guys. To add a couple of suggestions and to summarize the good ideas that have been presented at this interim: This is your best chance to optimize the crucial power and grounds supplying your high end system. What you invest now will be relatively minimal in expense compared to what many of us pay for the other equipment in our systems. Don't skimp now and regret it later. Everything matters. Consider the extra expense of having your electrician run the power lines in conductive (and grounded) electrical conduit. This will provide excellent shielding for the lines and result in better sound. Have the electrician use the top (or upper most) breaker positions in the breaker box for the dedicated lines. This will result in better sound. Use high quality breakers. Go ahead and spring for the deep cryogenically treated 10AWG conductors, presuming your receptacles will accept 10 gauge. You will never regret it. Employ lengths that are of the practical lengths that suit your planned equipment placements while being minimal lengths. Think of power lines and power grounds as antennas to electrical noise - the bigger the antenna the more noise absorbed. So the shorter the length the better the sound. Consider a minimum of three separate dedicated lines. A separate line for digital sources, one for analog / low power equipment, and one for high power equipment or even a separate dedicated line for each mono block power amplifier if you have high power or Class A mono blocks. Now this is very crucial and underrated by too many music lovers. Consider having your electrician install one or more separate dedicated copper grounding rods for your high end system. Again, separate grounds dedicated just for your digital gear. Dealing with the amount of electrical noise pollution present on our common house wiring ground system is unrecognized by the vast majority of listeners. Isolating your high end equipment grounding from being fed the noise present in your house wiring grounds will very richly reward you. |
I have experience with a friend going through different steps of upgrading his dedicated lines. These lines were not very long, approximately 20 feet. There was a definite improvement going from 12 gauge to 10 gauge, and also an improvement going from basic 10-2 w/g Romex to cryo'd 10-2 w/g Romex. $20/foot seems extremely high. He purchased the cryo'd Romex from VH Audio for $2.99/foot. |
$20/foot is really steep -- one of the best in wall cables is JPS and that's $30/foot but this stuff really adds up with the long lengths most residential AC systems require. I used JPS in a prior installation but it's a bear to work with being 10AWG https://www.thecableco.com/power-ac-in-wall-power-cord-bulk.html Much cheaper is Synergistic Research Quantum Tunneled Romex (as I recall I paid less than $500 for a full reel) -- enquire of your favorite SR dealer and they can get it for you As to whether these cables make a difference it's obviously next to impossible to do a real A:B but if you're doing a new in wall set up for the modest cost of the SR level solution it hardly seems worth skimping |
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Why would he ask how long you wanted wire?Length of wire should be bare minimum from recep to recep with a single home run back to panel & no extra length....Wire SIZE should be #12 unless the home run is 50’+ then I recommend upsizing to#10...Don’t use cheap generic receps either but don’t go nuts...Look at Pangea for bang for $...Also make sure lighting & power circuits are on separate phases of the panel.. |
