Discuss The Viv Lab Rigid Arm


I am trying to do my due diligence about this arm. I am just having a hard time getting my head around this idea of zero overhang and no offset. Does this arm really work the way it is reported to do?

neonknight

It seems that owners of the Viv Labs RF arm rave about it, whilst non-owners say it is impossible for it to be even acceptable. Someone’s got to be right.

Each design has its drawbacks, so its possible that each design can be successful in its own right. I’ve never heard an underhung or no-offset pivoted arm, but it’s certainly an interesting concept so I wouldn’t rule it out.

It would take the drilling of just one extra hole in an SME 309-type headshell to mount a cartridge with no offset ... so I could set it up as an underhung tonearm and see (hear?) for myself ... What’s to lose, except a little time and effort?

The problem is that you’d be modifying an arm that was designed to be used with offset - just look at the differences in geometry between the SME and a ViV. So I think you’d be limited in whatever conclusion you could draw from the experiment.

Doggie, cleeds makes a very good point. Note that the bearing assembly at the pivot of the SME tonearm is offset to match the headshell offset angle. That would confound any attempt to use the SME as a test bed for underhung-ness. You could try it but probably should not generalize from such an experiment.

As for me, I continue to enjoy the 9-inch Viv I bought in Tokyo last year.

The same is the case with the Yamaha YSA-2 straight no offset underhung arm. Yamaha commisioned a variation of the YSA-1. The problem is that the bearing yoke of the YSA-1 is offset like the headshell and in specifying the YSA-2 no offset headshell underhung variant, failed to unspecify the offset bearing yoke.

I have seen one rabid proponent of underhung arms post scans of the RCA Radiotron manual about the underhung and overhung/offset. The moron fails to point out the RCA book shows that the distortion for underhung is about 8 times higher nor does he mention that it says in the text that if the undehung method is to approach high fidelity standards the length of the arm needs to be 17 inches.

Kinda puts it in perspective.

theophile, For those who are adherent to the gospel about minimizing tracking angle error (TAE) at all costs, the terms "distortion" and TAE are interchangeable. In other words, they (and apparently you) use the two terms as synonyms, where TAE is a subset of all causes of distortion. So it is no wonder that the Radiotron book conflates the two terms. But overhung tonearms with headshell offset trade off low TAE for a large increase in skating force, and a skating force that changes in magnitude, up and down and up, etc, across the surface of the LP. In 1940, when Baerwald, Lofgren, etc, published their papers on overhang and offset angle, they were just solving a geometry problem. They had no knowledge of stereo or modern stylus shapes (all styli were spherical) or even vinyl records. The majority of music lovers were still using wind-up "Victrola"s to play mono shellacs in that era. You have to ask yourself, could it be that skating force (and the application of Anti-Skate) is more pernicious than TAE, or at least similar in its negative effects, for the performance of a modern cartridge with an exotic stylus shape trying to produce a stereo image from information encoded on the sides of a V, rather than on the floor of a mono 78? Furthermore, the underhung tonearm with no headshell offset angle does give a single null point where there is also no skating force at about the midpoint of the LP surface; at that moment, the underhung tonearm behaves exactly like a linear tracker. Immediately before and after that null point is reached, the TAE is actually in the same ball park with that of a conventional overhung tonearm, with the added benefit of much lower skating force. So knowing all that, is it so preposterous to think that there may be some merit to the idea of an underhung tonearm? I own two copies of the Radiotron Designer’s Handbook, and I have learned from the book often in studying circuit design, but in this case their heads are or were in the sand, in my opinion.

For me, the most glaring fact is that the naysayers say an underhung tonearm properly set up would be a disaster with high distortion based only on TAE. If you listen to such a tonearm, the very first thing you would absolutely have to admit is that there is NO such disastrous distortion. This is regardless of whether you go on to love the tonearm or not. Doesn’t that simple observation make you want to think more? If not, I cannot help you.

Oh and by the way, I always forget the fact that most cartridges have some zenith angle error.  This is error in the way the stylus is mounted on the end of the cantilever.  An imaginary line connecting the centers of the two contact patches on the stylus tip must be perpendicular to the groove walls.  If there is any deviation from that standard, then all your or my best efforts at alignment according to any algorithm are for naught.  Turns out that the few companies that make all the cantilevers and styli observe a +/-5 degree standard for zenith angle error. Even a one or two degree error will screw up Lofgren, etc.