Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members?
It is usually the case that members engage in spirited, often passionate, discussions in threads. That’s normal. Regrettably, often those discussions veer off the tracks, where members are offended or genuinely have their feelings hurt by the content of others’ post(s).
Do posters intend to hurt the feelings of other members? Your thoughts?
I think millennials get a bad rap. Sure, some of the stuff that is in the news, is politicized, etc. makes it seem like @geoffkait is right. I'm retired from a profession in NYC which was not exactly a polite business- high stakes litigation. I now teach part-time at a very good law school here in Austin, Texas. Granted, Texas has its own charms, but many of the students come from all over the US and beyond. Most of them are not only hard workers, but pretty skeptical of the everything, including the popular image of their generation. Obviously, I try to avoid stepping into potholes on some of the more controversial issues, but at least at post-grad level, most of these younger folks are pretty astute, and just want to excel. We can address an issue like a "morals clause" in a contract or the impact of confidentiality in an era that is increasingly demanding transparency and deal with the issues without getting caught up in the gears. For me, coming from an older generation, I've actually learned quite a bit from these young lawyers in training-- I like their energy, they aren't jaded, and often have the ability to look at a problem without the conventional blinders that lead to closed loop thinking. They also grew up with the Internet in a way some of us didn't. And though they deal with it, perhaps more than we do (and are often better at computers!), they seem to have the same skepticism about where it leads. I'm trying to avoid any political overtones here. I do think that it is very healthy to tune out some of the noise, get off the 'feed' and work with people in person.
@nonoise - I love that movie! I went hunting for the Barbara Billingsly clip a few weeks ago and saw a highlight reel. That movie could not be made anymore. They insulted everybody! Some of it was silly, but there were scenes I had forgotten about that had me gasping for breath. Stellar cast, too.
@n80--True. I guess my point was that when you engage with people in person, particularly one on one, or in small enough groups that you can have a conversation, people are more alike than different in some ways. You find commonality. And, to come full circle, that may be where communication on the Internet falls short. Sure, we join here in a common pursuit, but it is different than talking in person. Though, truth be told, when I was involved in an audio club back in the day, not much serious business got done. We did have a good time, though.
As I'm sure you've noticed Celander, and why you posted this, there is an abundance of lack of regard for others on Audiogon. I have no idea why on a high end audio forum low end, intentionally rude and hurtful interactions are tolerated.
My solution would be for the moderators to suspend offenders and then expel repeat offenders. That would in my opinion make Audiogon a more pleasant place to visit, and attract more participants. To my mind this is the best site for discussion of high end audio with others who enjoy the same. There's no reason to be put off by hurtful or derogatory comments directed at others. Intolerable behavior simply shouldn't be tolerated. Those are my thoughts on this subject anyway.
I think Audigon needs more moderator attention as well but I think there has to be an expectation by the owners of the site that it will be civil and cordial.
I also think the moderators would need to pay close attention to context. This takes a lot of work on their part but I have had several posts deleted when the content was obviously intended to be humorous and on one occasion it was a Monty Python quote.
The moderator involvement would need to be more interactive as well. In other words, not just deleting posts without explanation. They would need to guide discussion when necessary, delete posts when necessary, suspend or remove offenders when necessary.
@mr_m - I think every chat board has a "culture" and from what I've witnessed over many years on other boards in diverse fields is that someone who comes on blazing is not going to get a positive reception. A little humility goes a long way. This board is far from the worst in my experience- most people seem pretty willing to help. I only started posting here in around 2006, when I had a question about transitioning from electrostats to horns and got a lot of good feedback.
Moderation- generally- is almost a last resort. Participants should self-moderate to a degree. When a mod has to step in, things are usually ugly- personal attacks, politics or the like. But, I do agree that once the rules are set, a violation should have consequences, starting with a 'time out.' I acted as a consigliere for an exotic car board for a number of years- lots of big egos and no small amount of sniping. It was a thankless task for the mods, who were largely volunteers. Tammy does a pretty good job in my estimation.
Audio Circle has a completely different feel to it. Certainly, the moderators over there (one per forum?) clamp down a lot faster on any nastiness, but then there appears to be much less nastiness in the first place. Chicken and the egg?
@whart I agree about forums having a culture. That's why I mentioned that I believe that culture has to come from the top. That's the owner and the owner's moderating staff.
I have also been a moderator for a very large photography web site. The owners had a primary goal from the outset that it would be a friendly, helpful site. They had many moderators, all of us volunteers, and we clearly understood what their goals were. This created a culture of friendliness and civility that has been ongoing for nearly 20 years now.
Yes, it is a lot of work.
I also participate in a tractor oriented web site that is the nicest most helpful website, not to mention the most useful website on the widest array of topics I've ever been to. It seems to be self moderated for the most part.
On both of these sites trolls pop up but they never stay....or they get the boot.
Luminous Landscape is another photography website that is friendly and helpful. It is a smaller volume site and it is a paid membership. The level of discussion is high. The level of contention and in-civility is near zero and all topics are allowed.
Audiogon is tainted by a small number of members who seem to delight in contention and belittling others. The rest seem very helpful and even the nicest among the helpful folks often get drawn into the bickering of the resident trolls, usually on the same topics. I do too sometimes, but less often now.
I think every chat board has a "culture" and from what I’ve witnessed over many years on other boards in diverse fields is that someone who comes on blazing is not going to get a positive reception. A little humility goes a long way. This board is far from the worst in my experience- most people seem pretty willing to help ... Moderation- generally- is almost a last resort. Participants should self-moderate to a degree. When a mod has to step in, things are usually ugly- personal attacks, politics or the like. But, I do agree that once the rules are set, a violation should have consequences, starting with a ’time out.’ ... Tammy does a pretty good job in my estimation.
I agree. For those who think the site would benefit from more stringent moderation, I suggest use of the "Report this" flag, which is quite effective. If it’s not, or you have a larger concern, it’s worth reaching out to Audiogon support using the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page. I have found them to be very responsive.
Audiogon staff will absolutely give forum violators a temporary suspension or - in extreme cases - ban them entirely. But sometimes they need a little input from us first so that they are aware of what’s happening in the forums.
I have to consider my own thin skin posting here or anywhere else. I choose my words for the sake of discussion, not argumentation. I will almost always lose an argument, since I have not been very good at it. Discussion, on the other hand is something that I have an interest in, whether I agree with the other party or not. I can learn, or even judge from statements of feeling rather than fact (whatever that is). This can be a way to try something new, or realize that you might want to avoid new discussion with that party in the future.
@elizabeth if the reason people come here is for the arguments and incivility then you are correct.
I'd like to think they come to discuss hi-fi and music. Maybe I'm wrong.
Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python skit where people come pay to have an argument. If that's what Audiogon is....well....just as stupid as that skit....but without the humor.
Nothing like meanness and disrespect to draw in the members of a website essentially dedicated to music.
For my part, I wouldn't miss it and don't miss it on other sites where it does not exist.
Not claiming sainthood here either. I'm quick to be snarky and slow to turn the other cheek. Here anyway. On sites where I know it is not part of the site culture I keep it in check much better.
When I found that I was wasting my existence with FaceBook I walked away. Deactivated the account. Will never go back.
I deactivated my Audiogon account recently too. Was gone maybe a month. Got tired of the nasty responses and my nasty responses in return. When asked why I was leaving I wrote "toxic forum environment".
Is it really that bad here? No, not compared to the majority of other places people interact on the internet. But why does an audio site need nastiness to keep us coming back? It is everywhere else. Why come here for more.
Anyway, in an attempt not to be a snowflake I decided to come back, to try to change what I can about ME and how I respond without expecting anyone else to change FOR me.
And to avoid discussions that have nothing to do with music/audio.
@n80- here's my thinking on that- elevate the discussion on the subjects of interest and ignore the rest. The philosophical discussions tend to get out of hand sometimes, but I guess anything can go astray. I try to contribute where I can, acknowledge my limitations (which are vast) and enjoy the ride. Life's too short, etc. Walking away from the terminal is a healthy thing in my estimation. I've also found that, in many things, my perspective changes over time. Every five years or so when I was working my career- I'd say, "why am I doing this?" I'd go through some soul searching, and eventually recommit with a slightly different view than I had when I was starting, at the age of 24. You've been around the block. There is no perfect place where all is good (though Austin is pretty close except in the summer, when we pay for the unicorns and rainbows with relentless heat). On discourse and what you like or don't--Make it better. That's all you can do-- and others may follow or at least you'll engage with people of like temperament. FWIW, I think you've been an interesting contributor here- you are engaged in music, and are interested in the 'why' of it. That, as you probably know, is what keeps us vital- that inquisitiveness, and willingness to be open to new/different. End of kumbaya. I do have fun with this stuff and am always learning, even if it is "re-learning" what I thought I already knew. regards, bill hart
Even if not literally Gadwin's Law, threads seem to take a nasty turn by page 3. Personally, I like to read opinions that support my choice in gear - but no amount of lashing out is going to make my X sound better than your Y - or worse yet, your opinion of my X
I don’t think anyone intends to hurt anyone’s feeling. I actually appreciate point blank honesty. This in return allows me to trust the group more to insure a dealer is not using this forum to sell their gear. Some of these point blank statements have really been helpful to me. They have helped motivate me to Google brands to see what they look like and spec out.
What I really have a hard time with is when you give an opinion on one thing or another, just so happens to be HiFi here,, lets say I express my feelings about brand A, and why I dont like its design , its only an opinion. Thats it , just one jackasses (me) perception of a thing. To me this is so insignificant, its just passing time.. Maybe if someone is cool we can engage in intellectual debate for fun, lets see who can think well on thier rfeet. .. Nonetheless opinions are meaningless for our purposes in speaking of audio. There are people that will actually be offended by someone elses perception of a thing. Somehow they take someone elses perception personally. Talk about seeking discomfort. Its just weird to me. anyone understand this at all ?
I know exactly what you mean.I've responded to threads asking for opinions/experience with one component or another and have the op get upset and defensive if my experience differed from his.I never criticize people for having different tastes.Just stating I liked/disliked something and why/why not is not a personal attack!
It does seem as if some posters are just waiting to pounce on others with ideas and thoughts/experiences that are not inline with their own.I think some of these folks would have been classified as "Phone Bad Asses" back in the day.You know,Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee on the phone..Mr Rogers face to face.
Naw, some of the most enjoyable posters (at least to me) have that dry sense of humor you speak of. Part of the fun of this site is the humor. Sometimes I think I'm visiting the Comedy Store in Hollywood. Stand-up comedians like Geoff, et al are sometimes snarky but funny at the same time.
Also, there are some very creative folks here at A'gon who really have a way with words ... skilled essayists, if you will. I love reading those responses.
What I object to are the vicious personal attacks. Geeze, I've been called a snake oil salesman, a shill, a conman and more, all because I have expressed enthusiasm over various products. This has happened in threads I've either started or contributed to regarding ... Audio Research products, room treatments, fuses, tweaks ... and on and on.
I've even been compared recently to a phony evangelist faith healer by one sick poster. Hell, if that were true, I'd lay hands of the guy's post and heal his negativity in order to improve his darkened, narrow little life.
These guys, the ones who are hell-bent on destroying the joy, and/or successes of others, are sick individuals who need help. As the great Zig Ziglar said ... "They need a checkup from the neck up." "They suffer from stinkin' thinkin'." :-)
One of the first threads I read here was "no-one-actually-knows-how-to-lculate-what-speaker-cable-they-need" The way the author was treated there was inexcusably rude, whether you agreed with the author or not. It put me off. I never could figure why the person who started the thread tolerated such nonsense or the moderators for that matter.
I’m curious, and am asking, what any moderator's thoughts are on the subject of this thread. I feel somebody should be looking after contributors and posters being offended by someone who is anonymous to them, behind a keyboard somewhere. What do you think?
THIRD TRY in dealing with overly aggressive moderators/posters. I strongly suspect it is one given poster who does not like me and wants my posts gone. Some aspect of their issues rising to kill the post:
@djohnson54 well, that was not my intention. Just going with what the discourse here was leading and dovetailing a discussion on the very same language I had with my son that morning driving to practice when he used it (yet again) after I asked him to not accept that language from his 3rd grader pals as his own.
But it I appreciate your perspective all the same.
This happens because our early learning notably contains much in the way of taking on via observance and adopting things as our own.
So not really early learning but taking on things without thought. This is due to the number of things required to become a human bipedal, are too complex and too numerous ---for an immature intellect to contemplate.
Observe, repeat, adopt/take on..but no analysis. Intellect is about bypassing this natural function as one arises into being the physical adult. Or not --- depending on the given nature of wiring and how one was raised. It is the origin of Aristotle’s statement, “Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.” Gotta love those various schools and the control over children that is handed over....
Intellect, in the final form (adult) or earlier forms (juvenile-child), was not meant to and cannot operate at full tilt all the time...as this is too slow and too energy consuming glucose wise and whatnot.
So the brain is like the muscles of the body, designed for temporary full runs and then to stop. You can feel it happen in moments of inspiration..and you are firing on all the cylinders you were given... and then cylinders additionally developed (the brain is elastic and learns/unlearns) ...and then....you can feel it fade, past a certain point of peak contemplation/understanding. It cannot be held. But the size of it, the scope of if it, the run of it and the low mode size and power..can all be changed, via working it. This generally requires health as well, as the body is the carrier. (see: esoteric schools and systems)
We were designed to encounter a problem, to ruminate, find the first solution and then the brain is to go back to sleep and low power mode. Eureka! And then brain fade. By design. To go back to rote repetition and hindbrain aspects of emotional rule of thought process.
Additionally, emotions rule and control and filter all rumination. First filter. Survival, procreation. Fear and desire are the bottom most filters that all thoughts cannot escape being formed by,and depending on the threat assessment by the body, the filter is either more or less aggressive in considering all rumination and shaping of rumination.
In essence, all here use their ass first and foremost ....and filter via it, in all things, to some dialed in level of potency in the given moment. By design. The monkey perseveres, first and foremost. No body, no carrier, no mind, no ’life’. Monkey first in all things.
That’s why there are 7+ billion of us, in one state or another of tearing the planet apart, as the monkey cannot yet be shut off or shunted enough for an unfiltered non rose colored glasses version of intellect to arise or be.
The esoteric schools and tomes, teaching and learning.. are all about addressing this fundamental problem of perception and self. A major portion of them are, anyway... They are all about clearing this issue up, for the intrepid who want to look beyond the monkey into an actual intellectual analysis of the nature of reality. Hint, the nature of reality is not 3-d timespace ground pounder Newtonian stuff. Also, that intellect can be made to be greater than it is, if the starting point is is good enough to take it to new heights. The path is all pain, for the most part, but it does indeed work. Monkey and ego gets no free ride - in fact, the opposite.
The modern western world, is run and controlled out of via and through the filter of your balls. This is purposeful as it rings in and completes a circle of control. Money is essentially an animal control mechanism, paraded about as being outside of emotions and problems. The west as a fenced and boxed commodity. By design. Very Straussian. With walls far enough away that most of the denizens insist they are free. Good job. Nicely done.
As for the on-line communication thing, when you look at it with this corrected vantage point, you see that all the cues we use in in person contacts, are missing in the on line discourse. Even the words themselves are spoken inside our own heads, via the ego loop mechanism.
The end point of that long trail of data and discourse, is that our on-line statements are more a reflection of us than they are of the person we respond to. That the 90% of the data we miss when reading other’s words in our heads... that we fill that in from who we are and how we use those words and arrangements of words.
So our flung refuse >>>>is all mirror<<<<.
Which leads to the very funny thing said to me once, about all that, is where you sometimes have to ask the given poster who is all full of vitriol and nastiness, to ask if they wanted a peanut for their monkey...
This is principally about western music which is about the monkey and his/her unconscious hindbrain as forebrain.... caught in a hiccuped emotional/ego feedback loop. It’s pleasure as sound as connected to motion and feelings, in a looped beat pattern system. Western music, essentially. (that you can feed a nearly newborn music and they will..move)
So we try to talk logic and thinking on a balls forum, full of people here in the act of pursing that to as much perfection and completeness as they can, at any price.
It is quite possibly not the fault of overly aggressive mods.
I have noticed at times, usually weekends, it will only take a post to be reported and it can be gone. Mods do not always completely read a post but just react to the reporting of it and poof!.
I could be wrong and maybe a Mod would correct me. I have seen numerous very good posts deleted when there was nothing in them that fit the guidelines for removal at all. But it’s a free forum so not much you can do about it.
First, I want to say what a pleasure it is to read teo_audio's posts. A very clever guy, indeed.
Next, when it comes to having your post removed, sometimes it's just out of spite and not for violating any rules. I've had a post removed that was more clever and direct than the one aimed at me and the offender took issue and had it removed. All it took was for me to contact Admin and asked for them to review it and they agreed that it was perfectly fine and they reinstated it. One has to remember that a lot of deletions are done on the fly as Admin can be quite busy.
There are all sorts of motives for people to debate . . . but in my estimation, you cannot be insulted or hurt unless you allow it. If your self-esteem is so fragile that you take another person's tongue personally, then you will be at their mercy all through your life.
Everyone has an opinion and everyone wants to be considered influential; unfortunately, there are those who can only do so by bullying, intimidation, and personality assault-- some even physical assault if nothing else will work. Of course, when defamation of character or physical assault happens, that is another matter and proper actions should be taken . . . but in the long-term, pick your battles for battles do not win the war, but the long-term strategy does.
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