Eliminated my preamp with amazing results

I have a different  twist on this subject  and I mean no harm by my comments. In the past I listened  to the McCormack  line lots as I was thinking  about upgrading  to it. Within there line I personally  believe  you have there best amp in the .5 I wasn't  a fan of there passive  preamp at all. In fact my time with there passive  preamplifier  basically  turned me off on passive  preamplifier s. I knew a fellow who had a qed passive  as well that I didn't  care for as well so I never  bothers paying any attention  to them after that. I found all the McCormack  line to have a level of underlayment  of scratchness to the sound. The extreme  example  would be the radio in a 70s Chevy.  My first thought was as soon as you took there preamplifier out of the chain your system  likely  became way clearer. Not being a passive preamplifier  fan I would think you are very right that there will be more drive and not as boring  sounding. I have read many times on this thread to keep you preamplifier  around for awhile.  My thoughts are quite different  on that personally  I think if you want to compare  your system  with a preamplifier in or out of your system  you need to actually  try your system  with a preamplifier  borrow one from a friend  or audition  one from your hifi dealer.  I know that comes across  as a harsh statement but years ago I wish someone  would have told me my highly reviews speakers were actually  cow dung. They were the last of the system  upgrades I did. And my friends said to me afterwards congratulations  you finally bought a speaker. In fact after hours and hours and what I though at the time was lots of money  I had something  worth turning  on. So it is from that perspective  that I made that comment.  Now another observation  on volume  controls  in a preamplifier  I by far prefer a resistor  ladder over a pot. That being  said there are some very good pots in some preamplifier s. And also  there are other reasons for no preamplifier as well  in my bedroom  system  physical space comes to mind I wanted a system  with mono blocks right at the speaker and one source  only and a volume  control at the source.  I did this for awhile with an old McIntosh  tuner. Then I bought a refurbished  wadia  cd player wadia  back in the day build one of the finest digital  volume  controls in there cd players made and took the tuner out. After awhile I changed the amps  out for a set that had volume  controls on the amps. A set of line magnetic  124a  that are based on an old western electric  design  the wadia was narrow  and deep so I had to turn it sideways  on my dresser  so I bought another  old school top end cd player from krell and run that on the bedroom system.  Lol very over the top either way but I enjoy it and after the wreck and becoming  handicapped  there is very little  enjoyment  left in my life. Lol I went very over the top on systems  around the house I have to  hire people to move pieces for me. Respectfully if you want to compare  with and without a preamplifier  I think you should try it with a better preamplifier.  I have nothing but total belief  that your system  sounds better without the preamplifier  you have. Personally  I am happy  for you that you are finding  more enjoyment  out of your system  this way. 

Regards

@retiredfarmer 

Thank you for such a thoughtful reply! So sorry to hear of your accident. I truly wish you the best.

I think we're on the same page. Without experimentation how does one know if there system is as good as it can be or how far you can take it? These experiments (including subwoofers, room placement,  etc...) have given me a better understanding of meaningful changes. I always say..."how do you know you're doing it right unless you do it wrong?"  

I believe many people just plop down their money take it home and plug it in. Since They paid a lot of money surely it sounds amazing!  Especially subwoofers. Most people are clueless to the importance of phase, gain and crossover adjustments. Like buying a Ferrari and not realizing it's tires have low air pressure or poor alignment.

This recent experiment of DAC direct to amp has again opened my eyes to what's possible. In my case, for the preamps I've used,I think there is one common denominator that I can point to as being bad. Older or lower quality potentiometers are NOT good. Even in a passive unit like the TLC-1 I'm starting to believe the POT is causing a loss in resolution making it lose dynamic presence. DAC direct restored the missing resolution (thanks to Audirvana and it's ability for high quality volume control.) A higher quality preamp with a proper volume control should certainly be equal to OR better than. I agree with you and will do experiments with other preamps shortly. For now I'm done with my current preamps. They're out.

The other issue I'm struggling with is why are manufacturers adding all this gain? The DAC adds gain then goes to the preamp that has more gain and now you can't get the volume knob up over 9 o'clock. I don't see any reason that streaming music needs this. In fact, looking at the recent trends, manufacturers are making units that have less gain and go more direct DAC to the amp with just volume control. 

So, for anyone to suggest a system is better with a preamp have they tried something like the Lumin or Eversolo ? If not, then they don't really know what's possible. It's highly possible that money spent on these units INSTEAD of a preamp may yield a higher performance. Especially the advancements in DAC chips have a huge effect on the sound. 

Trying not to be bias but I will admit that the idea of running the signal through more electronics is not appealing to me. However, as you suggest, I will keep an open mind.

Best of luck in the new year!

Not just an argument for the digital world. Many years ago, I invested in a PS Audio 4.5/4.26 preamp, which had a "straightwire" function that disabled all amplification other than the phono stage. Essentially, it became a switching volume control. At the time, my sources were a very high-output moving coil cartridge and a CD player’s line-level output. No problem with volume levels.

Driving a pair of restored Quad ESL’s and Quad 2 monoblocks, it was exquisite. So bypassing the preamplification function is far from a new idea, but still makes sense only in certain contexts. I applaud the OP for thinking outside the cabinet in this case.

By the way, I still have that 4.6 sitting in a closet, and maybe it even still works, if somebody wants to buy it as-is for cheap. Check out Tom Norton's recently republished Stereophile review.

From a Valin review of the MSB Reference DAC.  I use this DAC in my system with no preamp.  I run my phono pre into its extra balanced input.  Get the same results as describe by the reviewer;

"I’ll let MSB explain its preamp module (and if you hear an echo of MBL’s LASA 2.0 White Paper it’s because, well, great minds think alike): “It has been MSB’s dream for many years to allow its ladder DACs to drive interconnects and amplifiers directly. By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”

This “minimum parts” preamplifying scheme, which eliminates the need for a costly, separate, signal-degrading component full of active circuits (and a costly signal-degrading interconnect to hook the DAC to the pre), is claimed to produce “extraordinary overall clarity.” And, boy, does it ever! And not just with digital signals. (I’m not sure I’ve heard better analog reproduction than what I get using the MSB’s passive analog attenuator, Lloyd Walker’s extraordinary phonostage, the Constellation Hercules II Stereo amplifier, Magico M3 loudspeakers with or without a pair of QSubs, and Lloyd’s Proscenium V turntable with Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge.)"

@skinzy 

Thanks for sharing this info.

This says it all... 

By definition, a conventional preamp takes in the audio-industry standard signal and boosts it up to full volume for the sole purpose of turning it down again! MSB’s ladder DACs put out full volume, so no such gain is needed. The signal of the hybrid DACs only needs to be attenuated (turned down), and this is accomplished using MSB’s preamp module with its newly invented passive attenuator—a constant-impedance, passive volume control with no active circuitry in the analog path.”