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EMM Labs Vs Killer DAC

Hi Guys

I was over at a friends place today hearing the Killer DAC compared to an EMM Labs DAC on his Thiel 3 ways which were fed by an AR Ref 5 pre and some SS monoblocks I cant recall the name of, but they are evidently similar to the Arion 500's which was thought to be just a bit bass shy in comparison.

Anyway here is his view which will be followed by mine.

Have to say there's a lot to like about the Killer, except maybe the name which seems to rub people off the wrong way.

I was able to use Bill's Offramp to feed I2S to the Killer and AES to the EMM Labs XDS1 simultaneously and was able to A:B easily between the two using the ARC preamp.

The EMM does a lot of things right for me. But the Killer sounds more natural in the end. The XDS1 seems to exaggerate differences - higher highs and lower lows but the end result (which on its own doesn't sound bad to me) is less listenable to me than the Killer in the AB. I loved how the Killer reproduced guitars in Fourplay's 101 Eastbound (HD Tracks) which made it "easy" to follow. Where the XDS1 reproduced the music, the Killer sounded like it was an organised quartet led by the lead guitar, with the rest of band accompanying him. I really enjoyed that quality.

When we listened to the Phasure a while back, there was a similar disconnect - the Phasure reproduced voices like Pat Barber with a raspy or gravelly quality - was it more detail? I thought I heard that with Joni Mitchell's Both Sides Now (DVDA rip) on the XDS1 today. The Killer was smoother but more natural. I've only heard Pat Barber once, in a club in Chicago many years ago and from memory, it seems to be somewhere in between. It wasn't quite buttery smooth, but it wasn't quite as gravelly as what I heard on the Phasure either. If I had to choose, I'd err on the side of the Killer.

When I first heard about the Killer, about how well it sounded with vocals, I can't say I was particularly keen to listen to it. I had written it off along with many warm syrupy slow Chinese tube amps I had heard int he past. But it wasn't the case. I even threw in a bit of Depeche Mode for good measure, along with FourPlay. Over the week, I am sure I can put it through the paces a bit more with some of my more familiar material.

If there is one downside, and actually it was more of a technicality, it was that we couldn't play hires material with it. But when we were playing HD Tracks material, even with the OffRamp downsampling to 44.1, the characteristics I liked about the Killer were still apparent, even when compared to the material in native hires on the XDS1. Maybe there is something to be said about hold outs like georgehifi Wink who insist 16/44.1 is good enough.

I concur with what was said above..

On all material we tried to me the EMM Labs had a 'thick' quality - things were distinct but lacked subtlety and realism. The Killer was simply much more convincing.

I did a comparison a couple of days ago against the current PDX. Previously I preferred the Killer but the PDX didn't have the best valves, which are the Phillips SQ. This time it had the SQ valves and it was a lot closer. However I still preferred the Killer. The vocals were just so real, layered and harmonically convincing. The PDX was slightly bland in comparison, but on some material such as Sade - Smooth Operator it was definitely more alive - but was that some kind of false edge - I don't know - I preferred it personally - but there was the Killers vocals - which was for me more entrancing.

The GTG between the Killer, Phasure, AMR and new PDX should prove very interesting.

Thanks
Bill
128x128bhobba
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
Except the XDS1 is a DSD DAC and there is no proper way to do digital volume control in DSD space.

I think I've invariably found that adding a preamp to the system can provide improvements - it doesn't have to be solid state. I've heard the Ayre KX-R before on a similar system to mine and the improvements in soundstage are also apparent.

Whether you go the ARC route or the Ayre route really depends on what you want to sacrifice. The Ayre provides that last smidgen of detail and dynamics but loses out in terms of sound stage depth and height plus that bit of midrange lushness.
aplhifi
515 posts
 
Except the XDS1 is a DSD DAC and there is no proper way to do digital volume control in DSD space

True, however, you can use a number of passive attenuators that the XDS1 can drive with ease. But you'd really like that added coloration/lushness from the ARC. There is no way out. :-)

I think I've invariably found that adding a preamp to the system can provide improvements - it doesn't have to be solid state. I've heard the Ayre KX-R before on a similar system to mine and the improvements in soundstage are also apparent.

Of course it does not have to be solid state, simply because it cannot compensate for your source. :-)

Whether you go the ARC route or the Ayre route really depends on what you want to sacrifice. The Ayre provides that last smidgen of detail and dynamics but loses out in terms of sound stage depth and height plus that bit of midrange lushness

Without any doubt, and being well aware with how both your source and preamp are built, I totally agree that the ARC will give you this "extra" you need with the XDS1.

As I stated in the beginning, it is all about synergy. :-)

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
I have used passive preamps before and I think you are mistaken if you think it doesn't colour the sound. You have to read up a bit more on the Ayre volume control topology. That from what I have read and what I have read appears to be the best to do volume control.
bhobba's avatar
bhobba OP
303 posts
 
Doggiehowser wrote:
'Theres no denying that the Killer is exceptionally great to listen to. But as I have stated elsewhere, this is just a matter of preference, rather than one DAC "killing"/"murdering" another :)'

I can confirm this from some more careful listening sessions done out our way between a new DAC being developed and the Killer.

The Killer does something to vocals and the midrange that is simply divine - its not dripping in honey euphonics, and actually reveals detail - but its there. On certain material I preferred the new DAC, and on others the Killer. It varies with the material, listener, and probably the system as well. But most of the material I listen to is old fart vocally stuff like Peggy Lee - Fever and the killer really seems to shine on that.

Thanks
Bill
aplhifi
515 posts
 
I have used passive preamps before and I think you are mistaken if you think it doesn't colour the sound.

When it comes to passive attenuation, the only coloration comes from inferior switching or potentiometers. If resistor ladder is used, the quality of the resistors is very important too. But that is the only coloration you get. :-)

You have to read up a bit more on the Ayre volume control topology.

Oh, I have read about it. Charles has done a good job on it, and the idea is great. However, I don't really like mechanical switches, simply because I could hear them.

That from what I have read and what I have read appears to be the best to do volume control.

Okay, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As I've mentioned, I do hear mechanical switches/potentiometers, so I use other type of devices and non-magnetic resistors for my attenuators. :-)

Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
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