Field coil dava cartridge

@rauliruegas 

Your insight into cartridges and analyzing them are very much appreciated.

I look forward to reading them …

Interacting in these forums is excellent for us as we pursue the holy grail of music and learn from each other . 

Dear @bonzo75 : Good to see you posting in this forum.

You are a first rate listener reviewer and way better than some of the " professionals ".

I said " listener " because now I know that you post exactly what you listened and that’s all.

It was unfortunated for me and now I can see that for you too my post in your blog and my attitude was and is not diminished nothing and that statement you posted:

" (DaVa ticks most of the boxes) ". I was think that was posted by newton who shared the blog link.

Your traget is very clear from what you posted by your visit at Mike home place.

My room/system targets are different because I want that my listening sessions stay " truer to the recording " ( what is an impossible target to be achieved. ) or at least nearer to and everything the same my common sense tells me I will be nearer too the live MUSIC ( even if that " nearer " is really far away from there. ).

 

I like to mantain my room/system LP/Digital MUSIC reproduction with any kind of " colorations " at minimum. I like the natural color, power, transients speed, dynamic, rythm and the like of live MUSIC seated at nearfield position where between you and the MUSIC sources exist only the AIR.

 

Not only me but at least other two gentlemans disregarded the Dava cartridge that came at this forum and wbf with out any single spec and two weeks ago a gentleman ( not the manufacturer. ) shared a terrible FR cartridge deviations but not shares the cartridge compliance.

 

I posted about the Top Wing cartridges looking for opinions in this forum ( other that the reviews. ) an you can read there that at once at least 3 gentlemans disregarded as me too.

 

Why disregarded with out listen the Dava or the Top Wing? because if my target meaning is " neutral "/low colorations the Dava spec can’t do it and the EMIA phono+SUT and LFD+Dongle can’t do it neither.

 

So, the main issue is that each one of us have room/system personal/unique targets.

 

In my case I have no single reason to try diminish any other gentleman opinion and something through my posts is that always try to explain the foundations of my opinions with out telling that I’m rigth and you are wrong.

 

Agon is not a easy forum because some us like to achieve a " good " balance between subjectivity and objectivity that’s not achieved all the time: hard task for us that try to post with that balance/equilibrium.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

 

@bonzo75 I was also pleased to encounter your report.

It is offering a content that is unusual in this section of the forum, and a very welcome 'reference post' for when discussions are in place about obscure analogue replay ancillaries.

I like the 'to the point' preference being made known for an item, it certainly makes such an item 'Pop' in appeal and generate an interest.

Gon is screaming out for content like yours, especially supported by broad experiences of ancillaries that surface on regular occasion.

I'm sure the bounce back in communication would be very attractive from the Bulk of contributors.

I will hopefully stumble on a few more posts from yourself, now you are back using the Keyboard with Gon' in your sights.

@bonzo75 

i ordered it a month ago when I started this thread .

the Kondo silver with xlr is wired in to the arm with no din connector. So I won’t be able to try it on the sme .

I alternate between a Cardas clear beyond xlr along with an audience phono cable for the sme .

the Cardas clear beyond is my fav.

I am getting a ch precision p1 phono stage with a x1 power supply. I am very curious how the dava will sound when comparing between volatage amplification vs current amplification input in the p1. The dealer tells me the p1 has a caliberation disc and it’s  will be a breeze caliberating the dava to the p1. Looking forward to playing with all the tweaks . 😊

nice to hear from someone who has listened to the dava . I am going in blind lol … 

 

Great to hear, Newton.

will be good to see how it compares to the Lambda as that is the first Lyra cart I liked (Olympos is also good but Lamda more extended).

 

Will be good to hear your findings

 

 interesting that you have Kondo silver cable which is what the Kondo arm does with SME. I mentioned in my Sigma MAAT report a guy who regularly changes his tone arm cable to Kondo in SME arms

@bonzo75 

thanks for your input . I have ordered the dava. ETA around feb/mar 2023.

will be mounted  on a Durand tosca tonearm on a nvs reference table and will be playing alongside a Lyra atlas lambda sl on a kuzma 4 point 11” with Kondo silver cable and an ortofon verisimo on a sme v arm on a sme 30 table .

should be fun listening to diff flavors .

FYI your write up was very engaging and I was never distracted from what you had to convey .

I normally don't post much on the Gon (no particular reason just not used to it), but Raul messaged me on my zero distortion blog and pointed me to this thread. reading the thread he already seems to have taken one of my statements out of context (DaVa ticks most of the boxes) and dismissed me as having heard the frequency response anomaly and not realized it. 

In his message he pointed out that CS Port is an LT and so will be different. There was no mention there that the Etsuro was also on the NVS with a pivot. (nor did he take into account that I have recently, over the past few months, written more on linear trackers than anyone/most on other forums, including a detailed write up on my blog on Vyger). 

He did not take into account my previous exposure with DaVa. Also, there is a detailed thread on WBF from other users if you want other data points

From what I understand Raul likes Allaerts. I do too. Great cart. DaVa is better. Raul in this thread recommended another user the Top Wing Blue Dragon. The top wing red sparrow, when done right, is my favorite cart along with the DaVa, but it usually sounds wrong in many systems, and after trying various arms, we only found it to sing with linear trackers (Vyger and Bergmann) consistently. Schroder CB, SME V, SME 3012r, Vertere, did not work well with it making it sound thin and lacking midbass. There are good reports from other users on Thales Statement. The only pivot I have heard a positive report on is Graham, but Thales and Graham I have not heard myself. Fremer's review on the SAT summarizes the attributes pretty well, and the review mentions it will not work with certain phonos. Moreover, it works for acoustic music mainly (which is fine for me) but DaVa works for all. 

Finally, the cost to experiment - to buy DaVa and to sell it off if it does not work for you, is the best equation across cartridges.   

I did hear good music. You simply proceeded to make too many assumptions. I wont bite. 

Dear @solypsa  : " I heard some great music on "

Maybe you are rigth because your statement could have at least two meanings: that you like the kind of MUSIC listened or that you like the DaVA AND YOUR POST MAKES ME THINK THE dAVA DUE THAT YOU MENTIONED THE RIG WITH BUT IF YOU REALLY DO NOT LIKE THE dAVA THEN WHY NOT POST IT INSTEAD TO LOOK A LITTLE  " condescending ".

 

Btw, you can elaborate, no problem it's a free forum.

 

R.

@rauliruegas we don't know each other. I respect you have an opinion and experience. You may wish to stop assuming what you know about me, or even what my opinion of the DaVa is ( as I did not elaborate and will not likely do so ).

" 45db for digital that you mentioned this digital peak was " rounded ". Well those 95db peak ..."

 

must be read not db but watts.  Sorry.

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne : " disruption impulse factor here is dominant. "

I respect your opinion and understand you or other gentleman that like you is not accustommed to be questioned on your statements but in any forum one of the main targets af not the main target is to learn and how any one of us including you can learn when no " disruption " but in this forum normally some of us not only say: " you are wrong or disagree with you " but always we try to give as wider explanation according with each one of us knoledge and skill level.

With out that " disruption " the Dava specs will stays closed when now and thank’s to our pressure about we all know it including you and even that you disagree with @mijostyn  and with me in the other thread when you posted that with out listening we can’t know what happens down there about the Dava but the time gives @mijostyn  and me the reason that some of us just do not needs to listen to know. You can read the posts , including yours, in the other thread.

In the other side your reference are your ears and this time like it or not your " ears " failed " and continue failing with the FCL.

Of course that the wbf never " disturb " you and that’s why that forum attitude developed that true/no sense stampede for the Dava, yes with out any sense because no one of you even ask a simple and almost " kinder-garden " question: which are the specs? when specs are really critical with cartridges if we can " read it ".

 

@lewm posted: "" I wouldn’t take wbf too seriously..." and I agree with him and I think I know why he posted that in this thread.

 

With all my respect to you that forum already " damages " you when passing to be " the leader " to a just a " follower " like almost all gentlemans down there and @solypsa here.

SUTs, tubes, Dava, FCL unipivot, etc, etc... is part of all those. I know that you were " married " for some years with unipivot tonearm design and now that you return to it think that the field coil design can stop totally the wobble at microscopic stage that’s where works the stylus tip and you know what: NO it can’t due to those tremendous and huge forces developed at cartridge stylus. Yes , no wobble at macroscopic stage ( exactly as the today Graham ) but the grooves tracking plays/role at microscopic stage and that microscoping wobble develops yes you know: additional distortions. That we like it those distortions is not the issue but what is better to stay nearer to the recording. I pointed out here all those looking for you take it in good shape and could help you in any way even that you could think that do not need any help from Agon members.

Do you know why SAT tonearm designer disclosed ( years latter to start in the market ) the " special " alignment parameters in his tonearm?. Was exactly like this time the Dava one: by high pressures made it here in Agon and that " disruption " you are against it is what permits any human been to learn and grow-up. Don’t you think?

 

R.

 

 

I

Btw, @mikelavigne  that is not exactly the FR but its power spectrum along that frequency range but along the FR specs explains that FR manufacturer spec.

 

R.

@mikelavigne : Interesting and appreciated. Which was the whole hardware/software used on the measurements? The link shows part of the posted specs that shows the high FR deviations even that does not took in count the frequency range from 20hz to 100hz where deviations could be higher. Well that’s what you are listening and not exactly truer/nearer to the recording. You can make the same measures to the Etsuro too and compare it. 

 

@solypsa , good that you too like it that kind of distortions. Nothing wrong with that.

 

R.

I heard some great music on the Saskia/Tosca/DaVa at Mike's. 

 

DaVa Reference FR graph...

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/vinyl-upgrades-dava-fcl-tone-arm-emia-silver-phono-corrector-mc-trio.34405/page-5#post-826777

Dear @mikelavigne  : I know that you do not like spec/numbers or measurements any way the cartridge specs posted here tells all the true about our hot dialogue.

Yes, I was wrong on that cantilever-less premise but was not about that what you were and are listening is only higher " distortions " and the specs confirmed that fact because that unsually FR deviation it's a kind of distortion that develops additional distortions.

Your Dartzeel peak measurements were just on " target ", it measured 95db in the Dizzy horn " blast " LP against 45db for digital that you mentioned this digital peak was " rounded ". Well those 95db peak comes from the cartridge 3db deviaTION AT hf AND A 3DB CHANGE IN THE LISTEN AMP  MEANS AT LEAST THE DOUBLE OF POWER that's what showed your amp. Not desirable true energy but distortion.

I knew something was wrong down there but not exactly what was wrong and that's why I posted no less than 3 times the need for cartridge specs and now that are disclosed the ligth comes again .

 

Nothing comes by free, so you and your friends are listening what you listen it that's a equalized FR that certainly can't be compared against any other cartridges or any digital devices. The FR swing of 6db is a lot deviation number that affects all the whole frequency range. If you connect an equalizer in your system and boost 3db at 15khz sure you will listen more " energy " ( as you said it. ) and will like a lot as you do but it's wrong totaLLY WRONG AN IS UNFAIR TO COMPARE THAT CARTRIDGE VS ANY OTHER CARTRIDGE THAT ARE FLATNESS THAT THE ONE i'M QUESTIONING SEVERELY.

 

Number always count, look in a frecuency range say  20hz to 50khz a single deviation in any discrete frequency does not alters that discrete frequency only but its adjacents frequencies too and this means its whole harmonics too and that single discrete frequency deviation alters almost 2 octaves in between ! !. So and say that exist a 2db-3db deviation at 3khz that deviation distorts all the frequency range till almost 9khz. If the deviation is at 30hz then the distortions goes up to almost 90hz and everything in between.

 

The name of all those is DISTORTIONS that were not in the recording and that makes FIM goes way higher.

I never questioned what you was listening ( in the other thread. ) because that was what you was and are listening but now we all have a reasonable explanation.

 

Could I be interested in that equalizer named cartridge ? obviously NO.

Share with your audio friends where for sure there is at least one audiophile but at the same time with a little technical knowledge .

 

R.

 

@osada22 : I can see it, my mistake and something weird is that owners and not owners that read my " cantilever-less " not questioning me before. Appreciated.

 

However IMHO it’s not a good cartridge characteristics that the FR deviation swing is 6db at a limited frequency range of only 20hz to 20kh. That deviation means that the cartridge over colored and not so truer to the recording but away form there, 6 db FR deviation is really high at any cartridge standard. That tells that FR spec at 10hz or 40kh the FR deviation could be even higher. Those numbers looks as coming from an " equalizer " and that's what M Lavigne is listening and now I can understand why he likes it likes the deviations. No problem with me .

 

Anyway. good to know it and thank’s.

 

R.

@mikelavigne 

it’s your experience with the dava that got us interested in the cartridge… a killer deal at the price . If it’s equal to the other cartridges that you have.

the hum you had was a concern but now you have fixed it . Jonathan said he never had the issue.

looking forward to hear  opinions from the others who have heard the dava .

meanwhile we have placed an order for the dava with the tube power supply. ETA is feb/mar 2023 .

 

spent the weekend (5 hours Friday, 12 on Saturday, and 8 hours today) with Kedar (Bonzo75 on WBF) doing compares between the DaVa on my Tosca tonearm and Saskia tt, and my 2 other tt’s, the CS Port LFT1 and the Etsuro Gold ’special’ cartridge, and the NVS tt, Primary Control FCL tone arm and Etsuro Gold ’special’ cartridge. each of these 3 tt/arm/cart combo's was fed into an EMIA phono corrector with an MC Trio SUT.

we were joined yesterday by ’jeffrey_t’ from WBF, and today by ’Bobvin’ from WBF and ’Solypsa’ from WBF and Audiogon.

so that’s 5 vinyl loving people who witnessed considerable comparative listening with these three combo’s. my Wadax digital and Studer reel to reel were also played.

Kedar has a blog.....

https://zero-distortion.org/

.....you can read if you want to know his perspectives.

Kedar is returning Wednesday for another 4-5 hours of listening before he flies back to the UK.

i’m not even going to get into any listening opinions. you can just watch for feedback to circulate around about the weekend’s experiences. me posting my thoughts here seems not to turn out too well. the disruption impulse factor here is dominant. why would i want to deal with the grief? i only post this so those who are curious can investigate for themselves.

have a nice day.

I wouldn't take WBF too seriously, except to say that some of those guys actually do own the megabuck gear that they discuss, which does count for something.  But beware of subconscious bias, which is inevitable and only human.

@rdk777 

the opinions by mike is what got me interested in the dava. I have read what he has said in both forums.

I was hoping someone else has heard the dava in their system and what their opinion was.

There's additional discussions on the Dava cartridge on What's Best Forum if you're interested.

 

 

Thanks everyone for your response .

@lewm i did read about Mike’s comments about the dava. He’s a bit hard to read cause there is a lot of heart in what he says 😊.

I love my Lyra, I like my ortofon verisimo . I am tending towards getting the dava as a third Cartridge and  mount it on my Durand tosca arm.

more experiences are welcome .

 

 

Rsuli Don’t mislead people 
Dava A1 and Reference models
 have canteliver 
like any other conventional 
cartridge

Trecability 80-90 microns

,+- 3db 20hz-20 khz,

VTF 3-3.5 grThd>0.5%

Dear @newtoncr  : Almost all owners just do not matters of all the recording information in the LP grooves that that cartridge can't pick-up and your Lyra can. You can't recovery that MUSIC information .

 

That cartridge is a cantilever-less design that's the worst tracking cartridge kind of design and for me it's more important to pick-up the LP grooves information that that field coil kind of design

Along those losted MUSIC information a cantilever-less cartridge design develops a way higher distortions that you will listen due to its very bad tracking abilities.

The main and more critical and important cartridge design subject for we MUSIC lovers is : cartridge tracking abilities and here you can read an explanation about:

 

http://pspatialaudio.com/analogy.htm

 

In other internet audio forum started the Dava stapede in 2020 for those kind of gentlemans that really do not cares of almost anything because even today does not exist cartridge specs.

If you want a field coil design maybe the Audio Note could be an alternative for you.

 

Btw, nothing comes by free, field coil designs needs two additional connection wires that in some ways could " stress " the tonarm free movements.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

You might want to read the discussion of the DaVa cartridge on the thread titled “worlds best cartridge”. Mike Levign (sp?) who comments on that cartridge is the one guy who certainly has heard it and continues to hear it in his home system. He loves it.

Yes they are getting good press but based on such a small company it wouldn't be something I'd be looking at. I recently heard a My Sonic Labs cartridge (can't now recall the model) and was blown away. Never heard such detail and tonality like this before.