Filling speaker Stands?

Sound Anchors damp their metal-tube stands with a foam-like substance, I believe. Great stands imo.

I posted on this very subject earlier today, describing how easy it is to be lulled into the state of mind that absorption or damping is always good. And how difficult or impossible it is to change course once one has started down that path. It’s what Acoustic Revive, a high end Japanese company, refers to in their literature as “over-dumping.” Pity the man who believed more is better and didn’t pay attention to the potential for over-dumping.

Thought I would revive this thread with the weirdest experience I've had in this hobby. I had Atacama Nexus stands which were filled to the brim with Atabites. I experimented with 50% filled and then 75% filled which sounded better before settling on 100% filled because my bookshelf speakers are quite heavy (Dynaudio Contour 20). The Nexus stands were pretty wobbly so my thinking was that the more weight the better since it would be more stable. To be honest there was no difference in sound quality between 75% and 100% filled. I just filled it because there were spare atabites and I didn't want the stand to wobble. I enjoyed this combination (C20 on Nexus stands) for a little under a year, the sound was open, the bass was deep and rich.

Fast forward to 5 days ago and I copped a new pair Dynaudio Stand 6 stands as there was a discount to good to pass up with the local AD. Upon transferring the atabites from the Nexus stands to the new Dyn Stand 6 I realized that there weren't enough atabites because it was filled until halfway or 50% only and not the recommended 75%. The Dyn Stand 6 is more robust compared to the Atacama Nexus (its also 2 times the price which is why I didn't buy it in the first place (doh!)) and has a damping material sandwiched in between top and bottom plates and my first impressions were that it sounded okay at 50% filled but not as open sounding as the Atacama Nexus was with atabites filled to the brim.

So what was my solution? Buy more atabites! So I bought a tub and filled it up to the recommended 75% filled amount. Turned up the juice and my jaw dropped because it sounded horrible! Life was sucked out of the music, anxiety and worry washed over and I thought to myself what have I done? 

Did some quick research on overdamped stands and true enough someone from a Singapore hifi forum experienced the same thing with his Dyn stands and atabites. He ended up removing all of his atabites. 

The following day I removed half of the atabites and left about 1/4 filled in each stand and lo and behold, the C20's are singing again. They sound better than they ever were with the Nexus + 100% atabites filled combination.

The moral of this long and winding post is: what is recommended does not always translate to best results (granted Dynaudio website recommends filling up the stands to 75% with dry quartz sand and not atabites) and secondly, sometimes less is more. I hope this can help someone not make the same mistake as I did as he too will have a tub of inert silver pellets hidden under his couch.      

Anytime you have a cavity you should have it filled.

soundsrealaudio.....been there. If I had enough valium to fill speaker stands my problem would be much larger than pursuing better sound. By the way...are valium pills smaller that small grain rice?I just want constructive advice.
Good luck with your problems.

My X wife left me and all of her Valium. I used that in the stands to mellow out the sound. Worked as you might have imagined it would. 

Another option is cast steel shot if not willing to take precautions. [ dust mask, gloves although the one time exposure level is so low as to be inconsequential  ] Its density it about 75% of lead. Sand is barely 15%

Rice is probably not a good idea as it is organic and not very dense. Rice may damp, but is unlikely to eliminate tube resonance. It's density is half of sand.

Sorbothane has improved everything where used. One must get the right size and duro. As far as marking, who cares about the bottom of the speaker? Sorbothane creates a unit of the stand and loudspeaker. Other materials may not.

I suggest you do not use Sorbothane. I have found that it sucks the life out of some components and creates a muffled effect, plus it will leave a residue on the surfaces it comes in contact with. I recommend Herbie's fat dots for isolation between your speakers & the stands.

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/softdots.htm

Thanks to all offering advice. Seems that everyone has had experiences with all types of fill as to fill material and level of fill. With my current stand configuration I only have 2 options for a fill material.....sand or rice (if the grain size is small enough). Only one 1/4" threaded hole for access. So the tamping down of sand really isn't possible. I do use Sorbothane on the top plate between between it and the speakers. When I purchased these Sanus stands (which weren't very expensive) I did not consider the option to improve performance by filling upright supports to subdue the ringing of those by tapping on them. Maybe, with my setup, it wouldn't make any noticeable improvement. Only after buying the stands did I read about the benefit of filling hollow spaces in all types of stands. Probably, different stands would have been a better option.Thanks to all for offering suggestions.

Use fine sand and tamp it down well.

Why? Deadens vibration and adds mass.

Lead has no advantages (and some setbacks). And... it can be toxic.

I also suggest decoupling the speakers from the stands. Sorbothane works, but you can even use four big globs of Blu-Tack (or museum putty, which is the same thing at 1/3 the price) near the corners.

This is perfect advice, though tamping down the sand is a bit extreme, especially if is dry. 

I use uncooked rice.  Your situation of a small opening will require that you find rice with a small grain size.   Advantages:  availability; low cost; moderate weight; non-toxic; non-magnetic; minimal settling and compression.   Rice provides some mass, along with excellent vibration dampening.

You need to dampen vibrations and that means more than just adding mass. Sorbothane is the only material I know of which actually converts the mechanical energy to heat, thereby getting it out of the system quickly. I recommend 1/4 inch self stick  sorb , of the densest form, 70 duro. Use small pieces of sorb eg. No more than 1 inch across and cover with 4 layers of electrical tape, so as to make this a constrained damping set-up. You can stick these all over your speaker, I place them on the front, and thus hide them with the grill. The effects are amazing. The big companies are only slowly moving this way. Search constrained damping and you will find a lot of speakers doing variations of this. Grado and Sennheiser are using similar damping on their phones, although with Senn it appears to be only with their top.models.

My suggestion is 2 pot expandable PU foam with Pebbles or/both light weight filler diatomaceous earth, micro spears rock wool mix ... https://www.homedepot.com/p/12-oz-Fill-and-Seal-Expanding-Foam-Sealant-2-Pack-217272/203459971 and https://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=37
By this way you have total control over weight density
https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/microspheres-fillers-filled-with-possibilities 

jrpnde OP
Well....I am the OP of this thread. There have been many suggestions as to how to fill stands with small openings, what that fill should be, and to what level of fullness should be. I have learned a lot based on the experiences of many.My take on all of the responses......the only way to find the best solution for me is to try different approaches. Of course, filling speaker stands isn’t as simple as trying other options such as just switching interconnect cables and the like.

>>>>>Eggs ackley! Which is why you cannot AB the various possible solutions, at least not very easily. It’s not that easy to AB one, if you ask me. How can you be sure? People generally pick the one that seems like a good idea and don’t look back. Furthermore, dry sand acts as much as a damper as adding mass. It’s the same idea as the sand-filled iso stands of yore from Bright Star. In addition, like my, ah hem, new iso stand, glass microbeads are much more efficient in their isolating action than sand ever thought of being. It’s along the lines of why woodpeckers are able to withstand tremendous negative g forces without sustaining massive head wounds.

Plus, as I already opined, isolating the speakers would be the preferred solution anyway.

I use sand in my Solid-Tech columns, and it does the job quite nicely, although it is for my component rack, not speaker bases.

A fun and good tweak but take my advice and stuff a large plastic bag into the stands to hold the shot.. Believe me if a stand should fall over you won't like it..

@glupson - My sincere apologies re Mickey, I should not have besmirched his impeccable gentlemanly  reputation by association with GK.

jrpnde,

Thanks for this thread. It was informative to read different solutions and thoughts. Hopefully, you got your answer. Enjoy.

Very Well Said, OP!

Well....I am the OP of this thread. There have been many suggestions as to how to fill stands with small openings, what that fill should be, and to what level of fullness should be. I have learned a lot based on the experiences of many.My take on all of the responses......the only way to find the best solution for me is to try different approaches. Of course, filling speaker stands isn't as simple as trying other options such as just switching interconnect cables and the like.
The forums here often stray from the original question or comment of the original poster. I have read many posts that did so and, sometimes, I read something I didn't know that would be in there but provided valuable information for me.I know this audio hobby is VERY subjective. Everybody has different equipment, musical tastes, and EARS. That's what makes this so interesting. Criticizing others for their opinions may just be a bit outside of what the forums try to achieve.But, we're all human and want express ourselves in whatever manner.Thanks to all.

Mickey Mouse is a nice character with numerous virtues. He is also a fine gentleman who is, if I remember correctly, turning 90 this year. Which brings me back to elizabeth’s recommendation not to use lead because of toddlers. Has nothing to do with sound, but a lot to do with this thread. Unless you are sure you will never have a child visiting, do not do it.

Maybe if GK could be induced to inserting a phone receiver up his nether regions he could be teleported to a parallel universe where his Mickey Mouse compendium of physics actually work.

Thanks for the keen psychoanalysis, Mr. Clean Slate. Can I suggest a long cold shower? And maybe cut back a little bit on the Viagra.

geoffkait,

Not blowing anything. Just reminding you of who you are. Know your limits. They are very low. Your contributions to any of these threads are virtually non-existent. Your random chatter is distracting people who would like to learn something here. Your manners are deplorable. I would like to find a positive thing to mention, but you are not giving any opportunity with your posts.

Whoa! What! Glubson finally blew a head gasket. Oh, well, that’s the way it goes sometimes. Of course he’s far under 60. He’s 15.

Hey, d2girls,

if you meant me, I am far under 60. Not that it matters, but for the record. Otherwise, you are right about bickering, but so am I.

The problem is, as is so oft the case, “minimal resonance” is not really the name of the game. It’s sound quality. If you cannot hear the detrimental effects of lead on the sound then you should probably hang up your spurs. With an objective ear, not a presupposing ear, you should be able to hear how the entire base spectrum suffers. I admit lead seems like such a great idea. Not too soft, not too hard. Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade swore by lead and would carry a couple hundred pounds of the stuff out to Las Vegas for his exhibit at CES. Then one day Karakal-boom! ⚡️⚡️He finally realized lead was hurting the sound. Sometimes it takes a while for it to sink in. 😢

Number 8 or 9 lead shot ( can be mixed with sand ) is still the best for both minimal resonance, and stability, ime. Enjoy ! MrD.

No, glupson, it was actually your post that had no bearing on the case. 

This thread was of practical use with a number of good-intended posts until the post above.

What if aliens come down and abduct the toddler? The chances are higher the toddler will fall out an open window or drink some Draino. You can play the what if game until the cows come home. 🐄 🐄 🐄

Say you spill some and a pet or visiting toddler eats it two month later?

I think elizabeth's point is worth repeating. If the toddler is not the visiting kind, risk increases.

Look! Two 🍑🎩 just flew by.  Make a wish, Johnny.

So did anyone actually AB the system with filled stands and without filled stands?

The question is a typical GK inanity.

Most probably everyone who filled stands listened to their system with unfilled stands, filled them and listened again. Unfilled A -> Filled B.

In some audiodom instances, a change is so obvious, there is no need to ABA.

How about a blind test?

@GK : does listening in the dark count? ~<;-P
 

So did anyone actually AB the system with filled stands and without filled stands? No.

Geoff,
Replacing your medically prescribed lithium regime with Albanian overproof Absinthe does not result in a particularly good look.

Can't say it's been happening all that infrequently here of late.

geoffkait writes:

So did anyone actually AB the system with filled stands and without filled stands? No. How about a blind test? No.

Um, yes. I had some "bookshelf" speakers on undamped stands for several weeks and came to know playback's resonant peaks and quirks. Then I went to Home Depot and got enough sand to fill the upright columns of both stands.

I was astounded by the improvement. The speakers sounded more like panel speakers, where the sound was suspended in space and there was an absence of boxy resonances and resonant peaks.
Trying to figure the reason for the profound improvement, instead of an "A-ha!" moment, I had more of a "Well, DUH!" moment. I was a percussionist for several years including playing chimes. Chimes are usually hollow tubes of aluminum with an unusual complex array of overtones. Hollow tube uprights for speaker stands are *very* similar to the construction of chimes. The speakers sitting on the speaker stands excite the resonant modes of the metal upright tubes. By filling the tubes with sand, you completely quell these modes and resonances and you are left with just the musical signals coming from the recordings without additional resonances.
I prefer sand over any of the other substances. First of all, it's cheap, second, many speaker stands have tiny openings to their tubular uprights. Sand is the only thing that can always be poured in there. It won't pull humidity out of the air and cake up like kitty litter. It's not too heavy to move like lead shot. Best of all, it has superior damping because it makes full contact with the entire inner surfaces of the tubular uprights, unlike pebbles, kitty litter, lead shot (unless it's very tiny), etc.

BB’s are too expensive.
I have also used sand blasting gravel.

So did anyone actually AB the system with filled stands and without filled stands? No. How about a blind test? No.

OP, nice post! Posters, lots of good ideas/opinions! I needed this to remind me to go get sand for my stands...

Tom

Just one more example. When reviewing Atacama Nexus stands TNT AUDIO had the following to say.

The performance of the Nexus 7 can be easily improved though. Each stand weighs in 6 kgs (13 lbs) but you can make it heavier by just adding some filler into the central column, for example using the Atacama Atabites "delta-chips"...
Adding the filler makes the stand heavier and less prone to resonate. This adds some extra weight (pun not intended) in the bass department, too. You can experiment with different amounts of filling till you get the desired compromise. Don't think that filling the central column completely is the best option. Try 50%, then 75% and finally judge with your own ears at each step.

So use your own initiative guys and don't just succumb to the 'me too - if some is good then more must be better' crowd. Use your own ears and judgement and you will be amply rewarded. I guarantee 

Partington have been building top quality stands in the U.K. for decades, have won many awards and really know their stuff.

the Super Dreadnought can be filled to dampen them and improve their sound deadening ability. This also allows you to "adjust" the level of bass in your room where the stands are situated. By filling them fully, maximum bass response is realised from your speakers, so we recommend filling them half way, listening to your speakers where you have them situated and then adjusting the position of the stands and/or filling them incrementally more until you are happy with the level of bass.

If you are a total bass head then just go ahead and fully fill your stands and leave it at that. If you favour a more balanced approach which lets music to breathe and allows other portions of the musical spectrum to bloom and fully play their part, follow their advice and try moving your speakers and balancing fill levels to achieve a good balance instead. You may actually learn a thing or too as well - unless doof doof land is your idea audio of nirvana.

Thanks for all of the suggestions I have received. Like I said in my original post... The open access to both of the upright metal posts are only threaded holes about 1/4" in diameter top and bottom. That would eliminate some of the suggestions for the type of fill used.
I'm sure that many would just suggest for me to get a different type of stand. Stands may come to the cost that many have more than the cost in their entire system if their system is as modest as mine.
I knew that my post would inspire a flood of opinions and suggestions from many. This is an issue that has, probably, provoked conflicting opinions of a lot of folks. That's good since everybody's opinion had some merit based on their own personal experiences.
My original question remains the same.....filling my current stands obviously requires some type of medium that can be poured thru such small holes. If the cost of such a medium outweighs that cost of the stands then what's the point?
Maybe, I'm asking a stupid question? Just trying to make the best with what I have.

Regardless of what you use and if the stand is not sealed, it might be a good idea to use a plastic bag inside the stand, then nothing comes out for any type of stand construction. It won't be easy finding the right size bag, so you will need to make it. Get a large heavy duty garbage bag. Cut one side off and use packing tape to close the cut seam. A precise measurement is important. Use the other side of the bag to make a 2nd one.

I have the same stands you're talking about in the 24" height for my KEF LS50's. I filled mine with 'play sand' from Home Depot. This sand is clean, dry and very fine. 

Regardless of what another poster in the thread suggested, you want to fill the stands completely to the top because you want them to be as acoustically dead and stable as possible. Even though these stands are bolted together, I've found that the base and top fit so well that none of the sand can escape through the joints.

It boils down to cost of the filling material verses the possible difference in sound. Depending on how large the cavity is to be filled, lead can be expensive and I am not sure one can hear the difference between fill material. Some day you may want to empty them to move, sell or ship them.
Lead shot - heavy - expensive - toxic (lead dust when pouring)
Steel shot - not quite as heavy - expensive
BB's - very expensive - heavy
Small pebbles - cheap - somewhat heavy - needs a larger opening
Play Sand - cheapest - easy to pour - might sift if the stands aren't sealed.
Kitty litter - not recomended

How how can a lead be toxic if it’s going to be sealed permanently?