great vinyl sound cost as much as great cd sound

I, too, own the EMM Labs CDSD & DCC2. I think you would spend $2500 on just the WIRE to hook up your vinyl rig- tonearm cable, interconnect for phono stage to DCC2, power cord for phono stage. The actual total cost to add vinyl playback is very high, if you include everything you need. From time to time I consider getting back into serious vinyl playback. To equal or better the EMM Labs combo in the analog realm would, IMHO, cost in excess of $30K at retail. Turntable- $10k, Phono Stage- $10k, Tonearm- $3K, Cartridge- $4k, Wire- $3k, Accessories- $1k. Of course, you can assemble a listenable vinyl rig for far less than $30k, but I think it would take $30k MINIMUM to beat the EMM Labs gear. I know several EMM Labs owners who have well in excess of $50k invested in their vinyl playback systems and, if the truth were to be known, probably listen to their digital more often. I ADORE great analog playback and definately PREFER SUPERLATIVE ANALOG to digital, but the high price of admission, the inherent inconsistancies of vinyl playback and- to a lesser degree- the software duplication and inconvenience (no remote control) keeps me from jumping back in.

If I spent that much on a digital rig, I woundn't want to know that vinyl was better, lol. Seriously:

Maybe I'm ignorant in the realm of high$$$ esoteric digital playback, but it took literally *seconds* to hear that vinyl was better than any digital rig up to $3500 I've heard in my home, with qualifications. I have a VPI Scoutmaster with Dynavector 20xL, a MuFi A308 Amp with inboard phono stage, Vandy 3A sigs, and Audioquest cables with the little battery packs. I also sprung for the VPI record cleaning machine, an absolute must.

To be precise, I only listen to used Classical, which tends to be better pressed,mastered and better handled. People typically condescendingly refer to vinyl as "laid back" and "warm," which is true, but it's more than that: what stunned me right off was the front to back space, the sense of a hall, (environmental cues), the quickness, the detangling and clarity of textures, such as simultaneously plucked low harp and string bass, and--for the most part--the explosive dynamic range, even on good recordings back to '58. With the record cleaning machine, about 98% of my records are CD quiet. For the first time I've listened to the vinyl counterparts of CDs I've owned since the '80's and heard things I've never heard previously. Shostakovich sounds like a different composer. Solti breaths more.

To be fair to PCM, I've been delighted to find that digital records sound better than their CD counterparts as well, esp. the early London/Deccas. Digital Lps were pressed up until '88 as far as I've found.

I earnestly urge you to take a listen to vinyl if you like Classical. I can't speak for pressings and recordings of other genres, so I won't. I've never enjoyed my music more, and I haven't even purchased an outboard phono stage yet.

Classical music was my driving factor for my turntable. I was really tired of hearing Classical on CDs, and on top of that, selection of classical music is no where near what is available on vinyl.

I use to wonder if vinyl would top my expensive digital front end, until I heard a vinyl rig with a familiar recording I had on CD. There was no comparison, and the vinyl rig was very modest using a vintage turntable and an Ear phono pre ($1200 retail).

Once I actually heard a record played (and it was really nice to hear a recording I had on CD and was very familiar) it was no question, a turntable was in my future. I thought I would start out with a modest turntable, but I ended up going half way up the mountain. I did go for a vacuum platter which is really nice, especially for warped records which play fine now.

On top of that, I've purchased so many used LPs for several dollars a piece that are just amazing recordings. If you get into vinyl, don't forget about getting a record cleaner, this will be important if you want to start buying used records.

CD definately has advantages (primarily convenience at the cost of sound quality) too. There are bad sounding records just like there are bad sounding CDs. But what a turntable does for me is open up a much much larger selection of music than limiting myself to the CD format.

As for SACD or DVD-A, this is even a smaller subset of music than Redbook CD. Granted the sound is better than CD, but how much music is there available? And has Sony dropped SACD all together? I don't know.

What's really on my mind is are we going to see the High Definition video formats go through an ugly battle (BlueRay vs HD-DVD) and both formats fail just like SACD and DVD-A? Let's hope the industry learns from their mistakes.

Karma, Others have responded, and I understamd what your question was, but I find your question leaves something out, and that is, do you own any LPs?

If you don't own not one LP, well, I'm not going to say it's impossible to start into Vinyl, but it sure does make it harder with the outlay of cash for Vinyl, and the question arises "Where does one begin"?

While I've been into Analog-Vinyl since the very beginning of my love for audio (34 years), I've amassed quite a few precious, and interesting LP's, but it's a relative thing, and I'm sure there's a substantial percentage in this forum who has collections of Vinyl which actually could pass for a Vinyl Record Business!

Not 100's of LP's, but literal 1000's!

While it's never too late, nor impossible to start, ultimately,you have to decide if Analog is right for you. One doesn't necessarily have to buy every costly LP on the Planet to enjoy, and if you have record shops in your area, second hand-antique shops, these are places were gems can be found. I have myself found countless dozens of museum quality, expensive LPs for instance many unplayed German Duetsche Grammaphone's of people like Izhstak Perlman, etc. Cost for these mint LP's? $1! I've bought mint Revox Classical Box Sets, never played, (Mozart-beetovhen-etc) cost? $2.50!

On the other hand, one can spend countless $100's-$1,000's for desireable LP's Just look on ebay for example, and look up something like "Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs" (MFSL) and check out something like what a Sealed 14 LP MFSL Beatles Box Set goes for. (Always would've loved having that set, but it's a bit beyond my reach right now)

Buying things like LP cleaning gear doesn't necessarily have to be expensive. $100, should basically cover all the bases with a good Hunt Dry Brush, a Bottle of Disc Doctor Cleaning Fluid, and Brushes, and a bottle of Last Stylus Cleaning Fluid, and a stylus brush (usually included with the Fluid) or even the super cheap $2 box of Mister Clean Magic Cleaning Eraser will do.

If you do choose to invest in vinyl, the best way I see to do so today, is buy much of this gear used right here on AudioGon. Tons of nice gear pop up here every day. Something like a used Mint VPI Aries-Aries II-Aries Black Knight would fit the bill very nicely indeed!

One that also comes with a good Arm (VPI JMW 10, or 12 for example) and a Cartrridge with Low Hours would be another plus, and buying used usually offers a considerable savings from trying to get in with all new components.

Buying used will also have the advantage of if you decide to get out, or upgrade a component (A Phono Stage for example), One may not lose one cent of their money when re-selling the item.

Lately, I see many beginning to rave about the very inexpensively priced Jolida PD9 Tube Driven Phono Stage as a Giant Killer in performance-features, and at $450 new, it's not a great risk to try out.

When I see people favorably comparing it against costly
costly phono stages, such as the Krell, this little phono stage has to be one of the budget buys of all time.

Vinyl certainly isn't as convenient as digital, but I myself over the years have found the extra hassle of owning, and maintaining vinyl a worthwhile, and truly enjoyable hobby.
Mark
Once can always buy more as time goes by.

Karma/All
I disagree that a VPI Cleaning machine "is a must", it certainly is not a must, especially for the biginning hobbyist, with 2-3 dozen Lp's in their collection.

A hobbyist in time, with the accumilation of countless LP's or one who buys many second hand, that have been initially somewhat mistreated will find a Machine such as this a great value to them, saving mucho time, and effort, but I see to technical supportive evidence myself, that a hand cleaned LP with the right products can't be every bit as microscopically clean as an LP cleaned with a VPI 17.5 machine.

I see reference many times to folks saying "Oh, after I clean my LPs with the 17.5, my LPs have never shined so much, like mirrors! That IMO is a bit of a fallicy, in that if it was doing some sort of polishing buffing to the LP's surface-grooves, it would actually be more a detriment, than a help to achieve pristine clean Vinyl.

I may open some eyes with my opinions, but the advantages to machine cleaning are 1. Time saved per LP cleaning, and 2. Lots less elbow grease needed when the machine is doing the majority of the work for you.

If one acquires a few LPs here, and there, manual cleaning can suffice very well, and only takes a small amount of one's time to achieve desired results.

Handling, and packaging after cleaning are important considerations, and if one hypothetically uses a big dollar cleaning machine, then resorts to placing that very same LP back into a 1 cent paper sleeve that looks like you washed the floor with, and with dirty-greasy hands that don't properly handle the LP, much, if not all of that effort is totally wasted. Mark