great vinyl sound cost as much as great cd sound

I have a highly customized battery-powered Sony SCD-1 that I believe rivals EMM, and a VPI TNT/Graham/Lyra/BAT vinyl combo that's up there. I believe that RBCD playback is absolutely unforgiving of even minor flaws in the digital front end & the labors of Hercules are necessary to get digital beyond the point of mere listenability. The CDP needs to get damned close to state-of-the-art for one to suspend critical judgment of the medium. Vinyl, on the other hand, is more forgiving to the ear of minor technical imperfections. It's possible to pay $5-$10,000 for a vinyl combo that satisfies short of state-of-the-art, but gets deep enough into the pleasure zone to forget about the horse race. From that point it's all about finding a good used record store where one can practice the art of collecting.

Dave

I had about 300 or so lps sitting in boxes in my closet. I have a decent digital rig and more than 1000 cds and sacds, but not the emm labs (I do lust over those).

I got a Scoutmasted here on Agon, along with a cart with "low hours" and in another Agon sale a Musical Fidelity A308 integrated with a phono stage. On clean, well cared for vinyl, there is no comparison between CD and vinyl. I have to say though that some of my cheapo used vinyls that look good at the record shop have some bad spots, even after cleaning. I do use a 2 step process with a VPI 17.5.

Now SACD vs LP is close, but I like SACD because it is invariably quiet, and I think SACD is as easy to listen to for long periods, like vinyl and unlike CD. When I get one of those Fantasy 45 reissues, it is ethereal to listen to vinyl. Quiet with warmth, dynamic range and just plain pleasing to the ear. But so is SACD. At that level, its all about the quality of the original recording. Good master tape (or DSD recording), good vinyl or SACD. Crap in crap out.

I have noticed that vinyl sounds so much better through my speakers rather than the headphones. I think the phones accentuate the surface noise. Even on the absolute best vinyl there is some surface noise. But it doesn't really bother you. What I hate are the buzzes I occasionally hear on the used vinyl, like a damaged groove. Am I right? or is it just the record isn't yet clean enough?

I have heard the emm stack and I think it would cost at least $10k to get there with vinyl, but the fun of discovering old recordings that are near mint or mint, unavailable on CD, much less SACD, is incredible.

I listen to classical and jazz, and there is a huge catalog that didn't get to cd/sacd. Like older artists, lesser known artists or albums from well known artists. And I find I like getting up and switching records after about one side. Its like its the right amount of music till its time for a change.

Now CD vs. upsampled cd is tough for me. Some cds its readily apparant, but I have A/B capabilities and some I just can't hear the difference, if I am honest.

Markd51: what kind of sleeves do you recommend? I'm new at this cleaning stuff.

I'm also curious as to how important a cartridge is? If one could quantify a percentage of overall pleasure with vinyl playback, what kind of percentage would you give? I'm curious, not knowing what to expect with hi end cartridges?

I want to add my comments about record cleaning. It is a must. A quality record cleaning machine makes for a notable improvement in record care, playback quality, extension of cartridge life, lp preservation. I have a Sota LPC which works unbelievably wonderful on my vinyl. One also needs the right cleaning fluid. Sound quality improves dramatically. (There is a Sota for sale on A'Gon now.) I had always hand cleaned my LPs religiously and throroughly prior to getting the SOTA LPC. The Sota does a better job than I was able to do by hand in any reasonable amount of time. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. My vinyl does gleem!

P.S.: I own 2500+ LPs so the machine really helps. If I only owned a couple dozen I would NOT purchase a record cleaning machine but would immediately begin purchasing quality record sleeves and a good "hand-cleaning" product.

Howdy again Sit, James, and all.
Yes, I'll go along with what you say Sit, if I had 2500 LPs, I'd seriously consider some form of machine for cleaning. My collection is nowhere as vast as yours, I have about 425-450 LPs. I am sort of borderline with the need for one. Since I've always stayed on top of my collection, what I have usually doesn't require much work to keep them pristine.

When I do acquire the one, or two oddball secondhand LP's, I'll go to work with both my Last, and Disc Doctor Fluids, and respective brushes. Usually, if I see a used LP that looks too plum tuckered out, i'll pass on it, no matter how badly I would've liked to have it. I figure why try to torture a good Cartridge (And my ears) trying to track a beat up record that looks like someone cleaned it with a Brillo pad? :-)

James, over the years, and in the early days, I probably bought Plastic lined sleeves from Rat Shack, and they were certainly better than the Cheapo paper Sleeves that came with most LPs of the time.
(Mo-Fi's were the exception, they always came with a good Plastic Sleeve)

Ten years ago, when I had gotten much more serious with Analog playback, and the acquisition of a VPI Turntable, I decided to upgrade every LP I owned at that time, to good Japanese Plastic Inner Sleeves, and the great Japanese Outer Resealable Sleeves.

I bought them from the same place I bought my VPI Table from, and that was MusicDirect in Chicago.

Before they were inserted into any new Sleeves, they were all Cleaned with Last, or Disc Doctor Products.
Any Factory Outer Plastic Wraps were trashed, just as the junk Inner Sleeves were trashed also. The only Inner Sleeves you really want to keep, are those with Lyrics, or Pictures of the Artists on them, otherwise chuck all plain jane Paper Sleeves, they have zero value. I'd buy the high quality Inner, and Outer Sleeves in bulk (100 )

MusicDirect usually carries a plethora of many different brands of Inner, and Outer Sleeves, and I'm sure others Like Elusive Disc, etc carry them also.

The Mo-Fi inner sleeves are nice, but also quite costly when you wish to buy literal 100's of them. The Japanese Sleeves usually offer quite comparable quality, and protection at a better price.

I've made a special rack for my LP's, and that is paramount that LP's are stored away from sunlight,heat, humidity and stored in an Upright fashion without being literally packed-crushed together like a can of Sardines.

Some use Milk Crates, and these I guess are OK, but can make LP selection-browsing problematic. Alphabetizing helps when looking for a specific selection, or catagorizing into different generes. (Jazz-Rock-Classical-etc)