Handling Heavy Amps

Ok thanks. Will check it out. 

You just work out the details with the buyer or generate an invoice thru us audiomart. Pretty easy. 

How is payment handled on USAM? I do have an account there. Never listed there. 

@audphile1 

I did try Audiogon but got not one watcher or question. . A day after EBay listing already got 35 watchers and two enquirers. I’ve always had success on EBay. If it doesn’t sell in 10 days I’ll relist on Audiogon

@audphile1 

Yes this is the final piece of the system;

Aurender N20 Streamer

MSB Discrete DAC

Accuphase P-4600 Amplifier 

Harbeth C7es-XD Speakers 

I will have completely replaced my current system 
I guess at some point I’ll go down the rabbit hole of power cords for my components.

I’ve already listed my Benchmark DAC3 HGC and HPA4 on EBay  Need to wait until the Accuphase arrives before listing the ABH2  

@jfrmusic congratulations on your new amp! So do you think you’re done or is there anything else that’s on a chopping block?

I’ve dealt with the same.  Because I don’t move gear often, but have had some heavy items I can’t even slide across the floor, I hire “College Hunks.”  Gosh, I’m laughing at posting the name of this company.  Either way, these two mule’s with head hair show up, and basically do the work.  Last time it cost me $250 for them to position my speakers, move my amps and put some items in the rack.  Back felt great all day!

@laginz 

I did my best to find a light weight amp I could live with. But once I was able to have it delivered and setup for me I decided to entertain amps under 70 pounds. And there are many in that 45-70 lb range. It came down to the Bryston 4b3 at 62lbs and the Accuphase p-4600 at 66lbs. If I need to I’ll have someone help me move the amp. For example If I get new carpeting the installers will move it just like they will move the furniture. It will be an unusual case for me to needed it moved. 

40-45 pounds is pretty much the weight limit for me as well these days. Right now I’m running an SST Son of Ampzilla 2 (with a sound I’d describe as equal parts tubish , Class A ish and, Class AB ish) into first gen Von Schweikert VR-4s. Amp is 40 lbs on the dot—and the setup sounds pretty great. Very good bass, transparent high frequencies  and naturally detailed sounding midrange. Excellent sound staging as well. A little more forward in presentation than Pass amps, but I suspect a little less so than the AHB2.

You may want  to go Class D, I have tube amps, and have lugged Pass Labs mono-blocks around. It does get difficult sometimes. There are many Class D amps that sound amazing, maybe pair them with a tube front end Pre ???

thanks ralph,

I had 2 meniscus surgeries, then the 3rd tear, I felt it happen, same knee, when I picked that 80 lb amp up from a lower shelf.

They had a look, said considering two prior surgeries, they wern't so sure what they were looking at. Try rehab. I did, didn't work, I sleep with a pillow between the knees, I may have someone else have a look.

@elliottbnewcombjr The FDA has approved a prosthetic meniscus replacement now so knee replacement doesn't have to be a thing. Thought you should know; I apologize if you already did. Good Luck with it!

...good luck with that, elliott....

Most teens will either ignore you, or respond as if you're someone morally reprehensible......esp. when you finally get around to 'what you're after'''...

Then, they'll be sure about it...*L*

I've had better rsvp's when I bust their butts for smoking trashpot....

"...y'know, guys....It's none of mine, but if I got smurfed by my source with those clippings, he'd be downside up in a dumpster...."

Street cred, y'all....😎

I've got a 3rd torn miniscus in my knee that happened moving my 80lb McIntosh 2250,

take walks, make friend with a teenager jogging by.

@elliottbnewcombjr 

Yes heavier than I initially was targeting but I could only find amps that were heavier that I liked and that were near me that I could demo.Once I understood that most dealers would deliver and setup I was more comfortable going a little heavier. I told the Accuphase dealer I was willing to pay for his time (3 hour round trip and Gas) but he said he as part of the deal he wouldn't charge me. Actually I think I might be able to move this amp by myself once it's out of the box an on the top of my shelf which is 22' high. The Accuphase has handles built into the heat sinks as well as two handles on the back. It's lifting from the floor to the shelf that's the tough one for my lower back. Plus I could slid it on to a rolling cart too. Or just get help. Think of it like a large sofa or piece of furniture . I'm not picking them up and moving them to another room.

OP,

Congrats on making a decision, and getting a great price from a nearby source, always a wonderful thing.

80 lb box; 66 lbs amp, only 50% above your goal. I imagine the dealer will come and set it up for you initially, and you can pay them like a service call to move it for you if needed.

You will be glad, you got the best!

@atmasphere

You bring up a good point, which hopefully is not poorly understood. It is certainly worth highlighting. Absolutely different designers / companies have vastly different sonic objectives…. Like Wilson, B&W, Conrad Johnson, MacIntosh, and Luxman… all very different objectives. Random choosing would be foolish.

So, you are very right that if do not first choose from companies / models that share your values in sound, you can then spend more and get less. But if you first make sure you are shopping from the right group of companies then typically a larger investment will net you much better sound. So, for me, I’d be comparing Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and VAC… as each have design objectives in line with my values.

Well you have a point but I usually go with my gut instincts. I tried to convince myself that the Accuphase was not worth the additional cost but deep down I know it was the best amp I’ve auditioned and I really liked its sound characteristics. I would purchase it if it was the lower priced component. So I called the dealer back this morning and told him my dilemma and after a brief discussion he gave me a great deal that included delivery and setup.  And he’s 90 minutes from me. I can usually tell when I make the right instinctive decision. I feel exceptionally calm after and full of anticipation. My search for my amplifier is completed. Expecting delivery of the Accuphase P-4600 sometime in late April. It’s allotted to the next shipment from Japan. 

My dilemma now is that while I really enjoyed this sound presentation it wasn’t significantly better to my ears than the Bryston that would justify twice the price  So I will struggle with this decision  If it was around $9 or $10k instead of $14k I’d probably go for it as it would be close to the Bryston at $7,800

@jfrmusic Here is a poorly understood fact: High end audio is not driven by price, its driven by intention. That is why a less expensive component is able to be better than a more expensive component, sometimes one that might be multiples of price more. Not in all cases depending on the intention of the designers of the components in question.

Seems to me you have your answer on this one. I don't seen any dilemma or downside.

Here's another thing to be aware of: the Veblen Effect.

This is the idea that if you pay more, you're getting greater value, which is not always the case- in fact it tends to be a blind spot.

So ignore the price- that has nothing to do with it.

All good ideas to resolve weight issues.

Had my Accuphase-P-4600 amp audition today. The amplifier is a beautifully designed component. Extremely well built  The sound was also beautifully musical with a wide and deep soundstage. The bass was very impactful. Actually the overall sound was different than I was expecting. I was expecting a warmer sound instead it was a delicately refined neutral sound that was slightly on the warm side of neutral in the midrange. However the highs were very neutral and extended with a perceptible airiness. My dilemma now is that while I really enjoyed this sound presentation it wasn’t significantly better to my ears than the Bryston that would justify twice the price  So I will struggle with this decision  If it was around $9 or $10k instead of $14k I’d probably go for it as it would be close to the Bryston at $7,800  I’m going back to listen to the Bryston again next Tuesday and also to hear the Pass X250.8  Actually wanted to hear the X150.8 but they don’t have one to demonstrate  Then it will be decision time  

@cundare2 If you don't mind some correction, the 3rd harmonic isn't 'nasty'. Musically its an octave and a 5th above the fundamental tone. Its well-known that it is innocuous such that this fact is often only mentioned in passing in engineering tomes like this one (see page 10).

The primary distortion that a properly working reel to reel (or any other analog tape recorder) makes is the 3rd harmonic. I don't hear people complaining about reel to reel sound, can we put this one to bed?

The 3rd harmonic is present in any amplifier. It is useful in tube amps for masking higher ordered harmonics and is a big reason for tube amps sounding smooth as a result. It tends to be more suppressed in solid state designs so the high orders in solid state tend to be unmasked, especially if distortion rises with frequency, which is quite common.

The period of amplifiers with TIM issues was about 10-15 years earlier than you suggest. Marshall Leach designed his rather famous amplifier in the 1970s to get around this problem. However its helpful to understand that TIM by itself isn't a thing- tunes out is was just distortion caused by how the feedback is received in the amplifier design. Its caused by the input differential voltage amplifier having to drive a high capacitance, and you can get situations where the feedback is unable to control the voltage amplifier, resulting in distortion. The problem was solved by degenerating the gain of the input differential amplifier, thus reducing the compensation capacitance it had to drive.

We use a lot of feedback in our class D (as its a self-oscillating design) but the feedback is able to control the amplifier properly with any signal right up to clipping. So its immune to this problem.

IMO your 2nd paragraph in the post above doesn't make sense. You do have to be precise when talking to lawyers and engineers :) 

The 'supersonic, low-amplitude line noise' to which you refer really isn't a thing! When designing a class D amplifier, its not enough to build it to meet FCC subpart 15 or EU radiation directives; you have to make it considerably more quiet than that so noise doesn't interfere with digital audio devices connected to the amp. So quite literally the noise you mentioned doesn't exist in a successful design. In our case the class D is quieter than most tube amps, not just in the speaker but also radiated noise (if the tube amp uses a solid state power supply).  So this does mean less radiated noise than most solid state class A or AB amps.

FWIW, due to the fact that GaNFETs have no leads at all, they tend to have very low parasitic inductances, so its easier to control switching noise. This is important because GaNFETs can switch at some pretty high speeds; perhaps a couple of orders magnitude higher than the actual switching frequency of the amp itself. So you have to make sure everything is cleanly done, otherwise you may well have the outputs switching at 60MHz and heating up a bit as a result :)

@atmasphere

Having never heard your products, I could not with any credibility comment on your comparison to Class A tube OTLs. But please be aware that I’m not trying to criticize your amplifiers. I’m talking about the way that we perceive the sonic artifacts produced by most Class D amplifiers. Please reread.

I tried to be careful with my wording, stating that "traditional" Class D topologies produce distortion that is similar in effect to Aczel-period SID/TIM. But as I tried to convey, this type of distortion is caused by a mechanism distinct from the high-feedback/lower slew-rate TIM that made news back in the 90s, just as is the audible-range intermodulation distortion caused by supersonic, low-amplitude line noise. Class D and line-noise-induced IM have nothing to do with feedback. The sonic effect of all three, however (at least to my ears) is similar. And when you do a deep dive into the technology, that makes sense. That was my point.

I also understand that the much shorter dead time of GaN FET output stages can greatly mitigate this flavor of TIM distortion. Given that "Class D" is an umbrella term that desribes only one characteristic of a complete amplifier design, there have always been at least a few D amplifiers that sounded pretty good, regardless of transistor substrate. Even more so since the increased popularity of GaN FET output stages.

So when you state that your Class D amps don’t produce the types of artifacts that have long compromised D designs, I can only invite you to loan me a unit so that I can hear for myself. Barring that, please try to understand my comments in context.

By the way, I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey when you say that "the deadtime in [your amps] causes ’lower ordered harmonics’ ". One could argue that nasty third-order, and even fifth-order, harmonics are "lower." I suspect you meant that, like a tube amp, it produces even-ordered harmonics.

Hey, gotta be precise when you’re talking to lawyers and engineers! 😉

Anyway, good luck with what I’m sure is a terrific product line.  (It certainly has a good reputation.)  I'm currently looking for a sub-40-pound integrated in the $7-15K range, so if you have any suggestions, I'd certainly take a look.

Technical papers that discuss Class D topology suggest that the distortion resulting from the topology’s dead-time constraints is similar in effect to what we used to call TIM or SID distortion in high-feedback, low slew-rate designs.

@cundare2 Those technical papers don't describe everything about class D amps since what you're talking about doesn't seem to apply to our amp. The deadtime in our amps causes lower ordered harmonics instead.

No issues of TIM since the input of the amp is never out of control by the feedback (which is what caused TIM in amps with that problem decades ago). We would not have released the class D if we didn't feel that it kept up with our class A triode OTLs.

@atmasphere

Technical papers that discuss Class D topology suggest that the distortion resulting from the topology’s dead-time constraints is similar in effect to what we used to call TIM or SID distortion in high-feedback, low slew-rate designs.

IOW, pre-GaN-FET Class D artifacts sound to the ear like intermodulation distortion when reproducing rapid rise times -- e.g., transients. It’s certainly possible for a listener to interpret this as brightness or some other relatively simple frequency-response anomaly, but I personally hear the audible effects of Class D distortion more like the complex and nuanced effects created by high-frequency power-line noise.

I realize that I’m hand-waving a bit, but I’m trying to keep this message concise without dumbing-down.

And as for me, I’m negative on pre-Gan D topology. I have 4 Class D amps in service right now and am actively trying to replace them all. Or at least relegate them to home-theater surround channels.  I realize that there are some well-reviewed D-topology components out there, but I haven't yet heard them.

 The one area where I think they differ the most with the Pass amps I've had is I think their high fequencies are a little more recessed,with less sparkle. 

@ddafoe The class D goes beyond human hearing so that's not a frequency response thing. Its more likely the difference in the distortion signature of the two amps since distortion is interpreted by the ear as tonality.

Recommend using racks with casters so you can move them around.

Why would anybody rest these things on the floor? There is no Sonic impact if you use casters.

@jfrmusic My friend and I both came to the same conclusion as you on the AHB2 when we compared it to the CODA #16. " I think the AHB2’s base has more definition and texture.". However, this was only on 1 very busy song. The others were a tie. My friend does not like the AHB2 overall. I think he wanted to find something nice to say.😀

The best way to position a big amp is by themselves in between the speakers on an amp stand with the other components to the side.

Just got back from my Bryston 4B3 audition

It’s a very nice amp. It’s overall better than the AHB2 that I currently have. The Treble is more extended and a little smoother. The mid range a little more relaxed and laid back. The soundstage depth is better and the bass is definitely more impactful and deep. Possibly because of the more than three times the available power.The soundstage width is the same. However I think the AHB2’s base has more definition and texture. Voices on the Bryston are similar to the Benchmark but unlike the ABH2 slightly set back from the speaker plane. If my audition on Wednesday does not favor the Accuphase P-4600 I will get the Bryston and the dealer will deliver and setup.

They had the Hegel 30A power amp next to the Bryston. So Dave at Overture asked if I would like to hear it. He said it was fantastic as they just set it up. Sure why not listen even though it’s $18K, over 100 pounds and large enough it wouldn’t even fit on my rack. So I listened and boy is that a wonderful sounding amp. So detailed but not in your face. Enormous soundstage in both width and depth. And a most lovely treble that is smooth as silk. Bass impact perfect. WOW! If it was smaller and lighter I might be tempted to blow the budget and get it. It’s that good. On Classical large scale orchestra tracks it was stunning. Oh well.

So on Wednesday I will audition the Accuphase and report my experience.

@ddafoe 

Thanks for the information. I completely agree with your assessment of the AHB2. It is a really nice amp. So clean, quiet and super detailed. But I feel like I’m right in the front row or very close to the performance. Sometimes the detail detracts from the performance. You start focusing on all the minute sounds. I prefer a more relaxed presentation as if you are in the 10th row or mid hall in a concert hall rather than at the conductor podium. I must admit the ABH2 has terrific bass impact. So I am looking forward to my auditions this week to see if either can unseat the ABH2. I will post my experiences here. 

@jfrmusic, I purchased the 4B3 and AHB2 while I owned the 250.8 so I could directly compare them with the big Pass amp.   I ended up slightly preferring Pass amp over the other two, but it was really just pros/cons of each and ultimately with my system I slightly preferred the 250.8 so I kept it.   At that time I likely would have purchased the 4B3 if I was going to pick one of the two.   The AHB2 was and has been the clearest (like a super clean window) amp I've owned allowing me to hear into the recording the best.   I loved its size and lack of heat.  But, I personally found its presentation a little different than what I was ultimately looking for, more like you are walking in and around the images, like I'm in the studio with the band.  I also found its texture and sound stage depth to be lean compared to the other amps on my list, and most specifically when compared to the Pass amps.   I found the AHB2 a great tool for analyzing the recording, but found it harder to picture me in the audience enjoying the show, which is what I'm looking for.

The AtmaSphere GaNFET monos caught my eye when I heard Ralph was working on them since he has made a living sounding tube equipment and to me the Pass amps have what sounds right to me about music from tube equipment.   I dropped in the Class D monos and they instantly sounded like the Pass amps I've owned, zero fatigue, a hint of warmth, great soundstage etc.    The Class D monos give up a little sound stage depth and midrange texture (at least compared to the XA30.8) in my system but have the similar Pass sound with a blacker background, tighter bass, and a crazy good lateral soundstage.   The one area where I think they differ the most with the Pass amps I've had is I think their high fequencies are a little more recessed,with less sparkle.   Their HF output is definitely not in your face at all, but maybe a little too much so, depending on your system.     I purchased the 250.8 to drive Magico S1s and Spendor D9s, both of which are not overly forgiving on the top end.   If your system is already darker or recessed in the high frequencies, you might find the monos to be lacking too much HF detail.   Overall though, I'm very happy with them as Pass 'replacements', and they ship in one box and literally generate no heat!

If I go back to class A or AB again, at this stage in my life it will likely be with a less than 50 to 60 pound requirement.   The Coda 5.5 at 45 pounds would be an example of an amplifier I would love to try next and compare with my Class D monos, and the Hypex Nilai monos if sticking with Class D.

I recently sold a Krell KSA200S which I carried up the stairs from my basement. This thing has super sharp cooling fins on both sides and really SUCKs to move and weighs way over a 100lbs. Anyway after 30 seconds of being out of breath after getting it in the truck Finally! Had something that felt like a hernia for about a month. Finally went away. Lesson learned get help, dolly or similar. Not worth your body. 

@ddafoe 

The ABH2 is light. What made you move from it?  Did go from it to the Class D?

@ddafoe   
 

A lot of amps in 5 years and three of the four quite heavy.

How did the AHB2 compare to the Bryston and Pass 150?

@jfrmusic, if you end up listening to Pass and if you like what you hear, then also try to listen to the AtmaSphere Class D monos (~13 pounds each).   Over the last 5+ years I've owned the X250.8, XA30.8, 4B3, AHB2, and now own the Class D monos, and I think they sound the most Pass like of any of the other amps I've owned.    I actually liked/enjoyed everyone of those amps in my system, but like you didn't want to deal with crazy heavy amps (or space heaters) and ultimately found there are many different options for good sounding amps (without having to spend a fortune).

@jfrmusic sounds like a plan 

Just the Bryston on Monday.  Then the Accuphase P-4600 on Wednesday. Even though the dealer will deliver the 90 lb Pass that will just fit on my shelf seems really to big and heavy. However if both auditions leave me undecided I’ll go back and listen to the Pass. Actually my ABH2 is sounding pretty good with the new equipment but I still think I can improve on it. 

@jfrmusic have you auditioned Pass yet? Or is that on Monday together with the Bryston amp?

If you buy a reasonably expensive component I’d bet the retailer would help you set it up at home. 

@velocityofhue 

I agree but they are in another weight class. 88-100lbs. 

jfrmusic, 

Try a PASS X150.8

Fantastic sounding stereo amplifier

Just listed my HPA4 on Audiogon

The second AHB2 will give you more volume on your speakers.  On my NS5000 speaker my stereo AHB2 is about 90% of max volume for about 70-80 dB. I like to use the lowest gain setting on the amp. The middle gain setting does get you a bit more granularity on the volume, but it is not as much as I want. It also varies by sources, SACD, tuner, and DAC. Having monos eliminates this important issue for me (I had monos before).

I am debating whether to trade my silver AHB2 for a HPA4 that someone is looking to trade on USAM. I am not going to use the AHB2 anymore and will stick with the CODA amps for my LRS+ and the NS5000. I expected the AHB2 to be great with the NS5000 but it was not as good as the CODA. Though I bet one day I will say that I wish I had an AHB2 around to try something.

If I had my shipping box for my Holo Serene preamp I would jump on the HPA4. Debating now. I use the LA4 on my Livingroom.

Now that I am satisfied that my MSB Discrete DAC sounds better direct to my amp than through the Benchmark HPA4 I've listed the preamp on Audiogon.

What does the second AHB2 actually do. Benchmark keeps telling me I would hear no difference unless I was clipping with one   

The AHB2 will sound different than both of the Bryston 4B3 and Accuphase. I am not a huge Bryston fan anymore, but I would take a 4B3 over a single AHB2 on the Harbeth. I would take 2 AHB2 over the 4B3.

The Accuphase and Harbeth would not work from me long term. Too warm when both are combined.

I’ve narrowed my choices down to three options

Keep the ABH2 and possibly add a second to go bridge mode. 

Bryston 4b3 - Will be auditioning on Monday

Accuphase P-4600 - Will be auditing on Wednesday  

If not much difference compared to what I have or not to my liking then option one at least for now  

I too have heard (CAF) and touched these amps.  Amazing.  Westminster REI.  And I do not own them.