By the same token, estimado Raul, the tonearm I use is the one used by the cartridge designer himself - FR64S. Not to get into random walking yourself, it's good to first make sure you know what you are writing about.
Hear my Cartridges....đ¶
Many Forums have a 'Show your Turntables' Thread or 'Show your Cartridges' Thread but that's just 'eye-candy'.... These days, it's possible to see and HEAR your turntables/arms and cartridges via YouTube videos.
Peter Breuninger does it on his AV Showrooms Site and Michael Fremer does it with high-res digital files made from his analogue front ends.
Now Fremer claims that the 'sound' on his high-res digital files captures the complex, ephemeral nuances and differences that he hears directly from the analogue equipment in his room.
That may well be....when he plays it through the rest of his high-end setup đ
But when I play his files through my humble iMac speakers or even worse.....my iPad speakers.....they sound no more convincing than the YouTube videos produced by Breuninger.
Of course YouTube videos struggle to capture 'soundstage' (side to side and front to back) and obviously can't reproduce the effects of the lowest octaves out of subwoofers.....but.....they can sometimes give a reasonably accurate IMPRESSION of the overall sound of a system.
With that in mind.....see if any of you can distinguish the differences between some of my vintage (and modern) cartridges.
VICTOR X1
This cartridge is the pinnacle of the Victor MM designs and has a Shibata stylus on a beryllium cantilever. Almost impossible to find these days with its original Victor stylus assembly but if you are lucky enough to do so.....be prepared to pay over US$1000.....đ€Ș
VICTOR 4MD-X1
This cartridge is down the ladder from the X1 but still has a Shibata stylus (don't know if the cantilever is beryllium?)
This cartridge was designed for 4-Channel reproduction and so has a wide frequency response 10Hz-60KHz.
Easier to find than the X1 but a lot cheaper (I got this one for US$130).
AUDIO TECHNICA AT ML180 OCC
Top of the line MM cartridge from Audio Technica with Microline Stylus on Gold-Plated Boron Tube cantilever.
Expensive if you can find one....think US$1000.
I will be interested if people can hear any differences in these three vintage MM cartridges....
Then I might post some vintage MMs against vintage and MODERN LOMC cartridges.....đ€
Peter Breuninger does it on his AV Showrooms Site and Michael Fremer does it with high-res digital files made from his analogue front ends.
Now Fremer claims that the 'sound' on his high-res digital files captures the complex, ephemeral nuances and differences that he hears directly from the analogue equipment in his room.
That may well be....when he plays it through the rest of his high-end setup đ
But when I play his files through my humble iMac speakers or even worse.....my iPad speakers.....they sound no more convincing than the YouTube videos produced by Breuninger.
Of course YouTube videos struggle to capture 'soundstage' (side to side and front to back) and obviously can't reproduce the effects of the lowest octaves out of subwoofers.....but.....they can sometimes give a reasonably accurate IMPRESSION of the overall sound of a system.
With that in mind.....see if any of you can distinguish the differences between some of my vintage (and modern) cartridges.
VICTOR X1
This cartridge is the pinnacle of the Victor MM designs and has a Shibata stylus on a beryllium cantilever. Almost impossible to find these days with its original Victor stylus assembly but if you are lucky enough to do so.....be prepared to pay over US$1000.....đ€Ș
VICTOR 4MD-X1
This cartridge is down the ladder from the X1 but still has a Shibata stylus (don't know if the cantilever is beryllium?)
This cartridge was designed for 4-Channel reproduction and so has a wide frequency response 10Hz-60KHz.
Easier to find than the X1 but a lot cheaper (I got this one for US$130).
AUDIO TECHNICA AT ML180 OCC
Top of the line MM cartridge from Audio Technica with Microline Stylus on Gold-Plated Boron Tube cantilever.
Expensive if you can find one....think US$1000.
I will be interested if people can hear any differences in these three vintage MM cartridges....
Then I might post some vintage MMs against vintage and MODERN LOMC cartridges.....đ€
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I have been busy of late with other interests.....watches, cars, architecture.Have still found time to listen to music every day.....but not reading Forums đ„±Last week I plugged in a NOS Signet MR 5.0 lc Vintage MM Cartridge which has a Line Contact Nude Stylus on Beryllium Cantilever (for which I have a NOS replacement).After playing around with VTF(1.5Gm) and VTA.....I also adjusted Loading to 40 Ohms and Capacitance to 250uF.I was really impressed with the sound and have spent days debating whether I should risk the heartless Golden-Eared Critics and Adjudicators on this Site đ„Ž with a âcomparisonâ....? VINTAGE SONY XL-88 LOMC CARTRIDGE VINTAGE SIGNET MR 5.0 LC MM CARTRIDGE VINTAGE SIGNET MR 5.0 LC MM CARTRIDGE VINTAGE SONY XL-88D LOMC CARTRIDGE Donât hold back......đ |
Halcro, Heartless is a bit harsh - we all aspire to great sound and wish it upon all. I'm reading forums to take a break from renovations and politics. From a quick listen XL88 vs Signet - XL88 sounding a little brittle, but compared to the Signet has more accurate presentation of instruments ( Signet sounds coloured like the FR7 ) and better timing through the midrange. Whilst the Signet initially sounds very nice, very fruity midrange, it loses composure ( timing ) through the upper bass midrange area. To me it sounds very coloured - if it were a movie I would say 50's jive. The Sony is more even handed, very quick and better timng across the board, more articulate. In terms of the brittleness with the XL88, unless the VTA  needs tweaking, I think you may be doing it a disservice using the super heavy FR headshell - the Sony is a medium compliance MC. Since you dont like Orsonics, I might suggest you try something like one of the Audiotechnica Technihard head shells - nid weight version - 12-15g if you have one. XL88D vs Signet - I thought XL88 sounded way better on the SAEC, then realised you had switched to XL88D. It was very noticeable the tonal qualities of the XL88D in the SAEC arm are closer to the Signet with a more fullsome midrange Having said that again the timing and refinement of the Sony XL88D  across the full frequency range shines through to my ears. Again - the XL88D is a medium compliant cartridge and I think there are gains to be had in using a lighter headshell in the 12-15g range. |
Good to see you back in action, Halcro. Hope that you and all here are well. I agree wholeheartedly with Doverâs comments. I would describe what I hear somewhat differently, but the gist of it all is the same. First and in full disclosure, as you may remember I have never been a great fan of AT/Signet cartridges. For years, I have tried to get truly satisfactory sound from, among other AT MMâs, my sample of the vaunted ATML170OCC and I have always been left dissatisfied. I bring this up because what I always hear from the ATML170 is precisely what I hear from the Signet on the Ellington (a recording I know well). âColoredâ means different things to different folks. I believe I understand what Dover means when he describes the Signet as âcoloredâ. I would actually describe the sound as lacking in color...the richness and variety of natural tonal color that the sound of acoustic instruments have. I hear that colorless sound as having a pervasive âgrayâ cast that homogenizes the distinctive sound of instruments. âColoredâ in gray. Timbral blandness. Btw, I hear a similar quality from most Shure cartridges that I have tried. On the plus side. in spite of this tonal blandness, there is a welcome fullness in the midrange. I say welcome because the Sony sounds a little lean through the midrange and upper mids; and when the whole orchestra is playing, bordering on slight harshness (but not quite). With the Sony the clarinetâs naturally plush mid register sounds too lean, while with the Signet sounds more correct in this respect. However, I suspect that, just as with the sound of the flute heard here, the upper register of the clarinet would sound lacking in harmonics. The flute sounds too covered with the Signet; little sense of the sound of metal (silver). The Signet sounds lacking in air and the upper partials of the timbre of individual instruments. In general, the distinctive tones of the winds is much easier to recognize with the Sony; in spite of the perceived high frequency leanness. While there is seldom a way to confirm this, the Sony gives me a very strong sense that what I am hearing is what is actually on the recording and not the inherent sound of the cartridge. This may very well account for the âbrittlenessâ that Dover hears, and what I hear as leanness through the upper mids. I believe this is a result of the mics and other recording equipment used. I hear this same quality playing this recording on my own system. Even more so than the tonal issues the most important difference for me is with, and what Dover points out, the âtimingâ. To me, with the Signet just as with my ATML170 there is a perception that the performance is actually a little bit slower than with the Sony. There is a noticeable decrease in the wonderful propulsive and forward moving feeling of the rhythm sectionâs playing that one hears clearly with the Sony. With the Signet the music simply doesnât move the same way; sounds almost static by comparison. Btw, this example gave the best sense of âstereoâ of any of your prior examples, Halcro. Much more clear left to right panning of instruments, whereas prior examples tended to mostly sound almost as in mono. I wonât comment on the Bela Fleck track because I find too much of a volume inbalance between the two examples to make a fair judgment. I suspect that in my all tube system, mounted on my ET2, the Sony would a no brainer. Thanks, as always, Halcro and best to all. |
Thank you Frogman..... And thank you to Dover and you for demonstrating your rare hearing abilities for the umpteenth time.... Many people (most) do not credit these YouTube videos with the gravitas they deserve because they are unable to hear the details that you and Dover so obviously do. The main point I have learned from initiating this Thread, is that just because I can't hear something....may not mean it doesn't exist? For over 40 years of High End involvement, I have naturally believed that I hear as well as (or better than) most others. I have demonstrated this on many occasions in the past with friends and HiFi dealers, pointing out faults and subtleties in various systems which are obvious to me but not to them..... This has led me to make inaccurate claims based on my own hearing abilities such as:-
But their hearing abilities are not the 'norm'. They are exceedingly rare and thus expose three alarming facts in this hobby:-
If cartridges, tonearms, turntables, cables, phono-amps, preamps, amplifiers, speakers and all the aftermarket tweaks designed and sold today....are designed by humans whose hearing abilities are largely in question...this industry appears flawed. That's the bad news.... The good news is that despite the fact that my hearing is not the equal of those naturally gifted individuals like Frogman and Dover.....I can still happily listen to those cartridges I might own, whose qualities would not pass muster with the 'elites' đ€ Regards and good health and happy listening to all. Thanks for teaching me heaps..... Halcro |
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