High quality subwoofer - which one?


I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30

04-11-12: Erndog
Johnnyb53- My experience is that everybody has an opinion about everything and so I take it with a grain of salt. The experience I trust is when I try different things and to hear how that sounds in my system with my ears. Only you can say what will work best in your system.

Absolutely right. Barry is probably playing the odds as far as what generally works well, but there are so many variables that in the end you have to match the sub to your speakers, your room, your speaker and sub placement, etc.

For example, sealed vs. ported mains: sealed speakers have a 12 db/octave rolloff; ported ones something more like 18-24. Which one is easier to blend? Depends on the sub's crossover point and curve. Ported? Front or back? How close to the wall? If rear-firing port close to the wall, Barry's right. If front firing and the speaker is out from the wall, you can probably get a good blend. As you point out, you can damp or plug a port but don't know if it'll hurt or help until you try.

I've heard sub integrations with a high pass to the mains and others without. Sometimes the high pass is better (e.g., to the B&W PM-1's with 4-1/2" woofer) and sometimes without (Magnepan 20.1 or my Mirage OMD-15).

Have you thought about a Dynaudio Sub 600? Claimed freq response is -3dB at 18 Hz and includes a high pass filter settable to 60 or 80Hz or bypass.
First, Vandersteen INCLUDES all those "nasty" EQ settings on the Quatro, 5A and model 7 (not much is better than product). Done right they are excellent. Two, a subs response is the ROOM it is in on. Yes, the floor standers are positioned for best imaging, not bass, so "more" EQ may be needed. But, that does NOT mean that a top flight sub should not offer some room EQ. This isn't harsh, it is what it is...a user feature to maintain a better overall response.

The feature has been built-in to all three Vandersteen models, and could be added to the subs, too. The problem is, according to Richard, that we are too cheap to understand the feature, and buy more on the price. Yes, the sub is located more consistently than the mains but still, you can only move two eighteen inch boxes around so much before the living room is the stereo and there is no place left to live! EQ helps avoid this.

Most subs roll off the bottom at 12 to 24 dB / octave to remove "junk". The top is a first order filter at 6 dB per octave...as is a high-pass filter. More than 6dB per octave would make blending real hard.

Actually, full range passive speakers are the WORST way to get quality sound. Most of the power is eaten-up in the crossover with pads to keep the little guy drivers from frying. And, each amp design is ideally very different for each driver. There is just NO WAY a "full range" speaker, even a C4, can be accurately dynamic and flat with the box size and power necessary to play flat and dynamic below 40 Hz. The C4 crosses-over at a high 730 Hz into the eight-inch drivers, so the two eight-inch drivers are playing a LOT of midrange information. Yes, the two help limit driver motion and intermodulation distortion, so they sound real nice. And I'm glad they biased the speaker this way. But, the bass is NOT as deep, flat, or dynamic as a powered sub system. The best world is with each driver using it's own amp, through an active crossover...things could be VERY different with the exact same speaker.

So, I feel that there is no way a "soft" crossover using just EQ is going to be as good as a true first-order quality hi-pass filter. You have too many things left on the table; main amp is still taxed too much, bass driver have much more intermodulation distortion than necessary, the subs "sound" doesn't take into account the main amps sound with line-level inputs and you don't have much control of what it is (with true active cross-over systems you can PICK the amps you want for sound, even all three the same). Amd. stereo is better at dynamic range and smootness all thigs the same. Things aren't the same, so is ONE SUB1 better "sounding" than TWO Velodynes that may be "smoother and more dynamic? I may never know.

Yes, I've asked Dynaudio about their newer sub 800 series (which has a high-pass). No response from the main camp yet.

I have ruled out ported subs as they have two large phase peaks in the pass band, and can't be a linear as a seal system can be. LOUDER, yes.

The market is just thrown-in the towel for true Hi-fi sound with hi-def TV. It's just that simple. Digital music is trash, and shouldn't be! 24-bit has failed to bring music to the public due to infighting over getting a square deal on production (and they should) as we all go to FREE lossless CODECS (FLAC). Something about the word FREE makes it hard to run a business. The technology should make meeting BOTH demands easier than before, but vendors are driven to distraction to make money for stockholders and not the hi-fi customer. A nickel spent the wrong way (hi-fi) is taken from the bottom line. Their eye is on the ball, it just isn't the one telling you what note to sing playing music.

Right now, the 2Wq Vandersteen sub makes the most sense design wise IF he adds the eleven band EQ feature. If Richard did this, I would RUN not walk to the nearest dealer and by two. It cost money to do this, and for what he sells to true Hi-fi enthusiasts, it just won't pay him back to do it. I'll bet he'd do it even-up! But, he may not even get there. It's a shame, too.

Look at this thread. I've spent hundreds of hours learning the ins and outs of subs. If we all really did this, and really understood what was going on Richard would have a reason to "upgrade" the 2WQ. In the old days, people worked things harder before we bought things, as stuff was not designed to be thrown out.

So, my position is do I use 2Qw's and "hope" I can use them anywhere I go with decent room response and placement and with different speaker, or go with a more flexible but technically not as "sound" a design that has EQ capability (SUB1 or Velodyne) and that sounds maybe more consistent where I want to place it? But if Richard would remove that gamble of room EQ, sign me up now!

You are all great. This has been a fun thread, and I hope we all learn from it. And, since this is hardly an easy decision, I'm glad to see people aren't condemning decisions made by others. Heck, I may have to make a decision and not even HEAR a product I buy let alone all the other! How on earth can I say negative things about a product other than off a design spec? Yep, all I can do is try to "improve" the STD deviation around a guess with a "best" design practice metric limiting my choices. Yes, the “best” product may fall out! So still, that is no guarantee. There are no dealers nearby that will loan, or have, two 120 pound subs (I weight 150 pounds...the sub wins!) to try at home, I called around, let alone even hear. One dealer told me to bring my own laptop and set up the subs myself! I guess PINKIE runs the store and the BRAIN is the customer? That’s no way to rule the world. More than likely, a dealer that wants the business, and sets up the product right will get it. I know only one store that does this, and they sell Vandersteen, so this makes it all the more harder to not reward that dealer and accept the gamble the EQ doesn't matter.
Rower
I asked Mr Vandersteen if the eleven Band Eq could be added to the 2Wq's a little over two years ago and he stated someday then I found this statement sometime last year:

Paul (7/19/11): Have you considered adding the 11 band "room compensation controls" to the 2wq so it could be adjusted the same way as the subwoofers in the Quatro? How much would this feature add to the cost of the 2wq?

Answer: HELLO PAUL, THIS IS IN THE WORKS BUT IT WILL COST MORE. IT WILL BE AN ADVANTAGE BUT NOT AS GREAT AS IN THE QUATRO, FIVES AND SEVENS BECAUSE THEY NEED TO BE PLACED WHERE THE IMAGING AND STAGING ARE BEST WITH BASS AS A LOW PRIORITY. THE 2WQ CAN BE PLACED IN THE CORNER WHICH IS THE MOST LINEAR LOCATION IN MOST ROOMS AS LONG AS THE WOOFER IS CONTROLLED ENOUGH SO THAT IT DOESN'T BOOM (VERY FEW).

Like you I've felt that the Eq on these would be most beneficial but will have to wait for the results. I seen that you posted a question on the Vandersteen Q&A but was a little confused by the answer, I hope he hasn't given up on the idea.

Good luck