How good is good enough?


Most of us here cannot afford six figure prices for each component (assuming that will bring the best sound.) So how far do we want to go to improve our systems? There are always bigger fish. When does it stop? It stops when we say it stops, when our gear brings us satisfaction. To constantly strive for better sound is an endless quest, not necessarily based on the quality of our set but on our personality.

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You downgrade a real idea about the acoustic way to deliver all spatial qualities without timbre degradation , which is Choueri idea, to a not so real innovative idea and an old idea because you picked as choice multi-channels various dsp over his BACCH...

One solution to solve the stereo problems is multichannels and the other recreating binaural effects (Choueiri )

The first add many new speakers to compensate for the lost of spatial qualities and unrealistic timbre (phantom image) the others compute a new mathematical set of filters to do this overcoming stereo crosstalk and phantom image problem ...

I will not enter in the debate to know what is better , but i will only say that your tentative to discredit Choueiri genius with his solution to the lost of spatial qualities in stereo without degrading timbre in favor of  your biased choice , be it right or wrong , about multichannels to solve the same problems, your tentative is only at best uninformed subjective position and at worst a slander of a physicist in plasma laboratory as main work who dont need money anyway as most other greedy business man did need money ... Choueiri is a pure scientist not a vulgar businessman or an engineer dreaming about the money ...Choueiri being a physicist has made and make already a living without his side acoustic hobby because music was his passion and hobby ...

Then argue with ARGUMENTS in acoustics not with slandering arguments about business and people intention ...

To be able to recreate without degrading timbre the spatial qualities of a soundfield in simple stereo system is not a gadget, it is an acoustic revolution in the making for music lover who dont need nor dont want 5 or 7 speakers etc to listen to movie as i am ...( by the way Choueiri go on with improvement because it is all about mathematical acoustic not about a mere toy )

Creating a multichannels system ideal for movies is not the same problem than creating a system able to translate the necessary optimal 60 degree lateral reflected waves from an ideal recording hall with his shoe geometry for example through a simple stereo system in a dedicated acoustic room ...

 

@mahgister , You do know that Choueiri himself has been a big spatial/object based audio/multichannel music connesieur in real life, right? as are many other known names in industry (A Jones, J Stoddard, Levinson, etc). The truth is...he can’t get anywhere near it because of all the patents held by Sony, Yamaha, Dolby, Auro, etc.

He has to make a living as well and so he’s tailoring/marketing something to the 2 channel orthodoxy. You are getting stuck with his marketing lingo, as if it is a miracle like none other. It is fine for what it is (and that’s about it).

@mahgister , it is a gross misunderstanding if you think object based audio degrades timbre?! The only requirement they impose is that the drivers, crossovers, etc are identical (identical speakers are required, same as it is for stereo!) and the same ethos for stereo gets extended w.r.t setup.

A true stereo purist may go for something like the Polk L800 speaker if he were to remain true to his purist orthodoxy, which does cross talk cancellation really well, when set up right...Pretty sure, Polk has a patent there and hence one would be stuck with the quality of drivers, etc Polk can produce (which ain’t all that great). Creative tinkered with it starting in the 90s for PC Audio. This is not some revelation.

Never said Choueiri is a dummy or "downgraded" him... I am from the same engineering discipline as he is, or at least prior to his audio ventures. I have met him in conferences (long before Bacch, before anyone knew who he was). I have read some of his publications, am sure he has read some of mine. He has successfully navigated the patent boobytraps all over the place and brought something to market (commendable). I am not all that a fan of vulture grade MSB he has decided to partner with, however. If you fly down south to the USA, I can give all kinds comparisons to Bacch and whatever else. Theorycrafting (like you’ve done) can often be quite different from observation of its real life execution.

@mahgister , it is a gross misunderstanding if you think object based audio degrades timbre?!

 

I never said that multichannels degrade timbre more than stereo....I said that the road taken by Choueiri was taken by others before him playing with this crosstalk problem , but he succeed the first with a mathematical solution not degrading timbre ...

All stereo problems are solved by multichannels or BACCH filters in their own way... As i said above answering you , i will not enter in the debate what is better ... I only wanted to respond to what appeared to me a slander with no argument about Choueiri the man ...

 

Never said Choueiri is a dummy or "downgraded" him... I am from the same engineering discipline as he is, or at least prior to his audio ventures. I have met him in conferences (long before Bacch, before anyone knew who he was). I have read some of his publications, am sure he has read some of mine. He has successfully navigated the patent boobytraps all over the place and brought something to market (commendable). I am not all that a fan of vulture grade MSB he has decided to partner with, however. If you fly down south to the USA, I can give all kinds comparisons to Bacch and whatever else. Theorycrafting (like you’ve done) can often be quite different from observation of its real life execution.

Defending Choueiri i perhaps misread your intention...I apologize if it is the case...

I will only say that his solution is not perfect nothing is but it is not a gadget improvised between other patented solutions... It is a bit more interesting ...

And comparing the BACCH filters with other solutions ask for dedicated optimal acoustic room to serve it not a living room or a home theater...

I did not theorized about what is better : multichannels done masterfuly or BACCH filters in a dedicated optimal acoustic room ... The two are too different beasts able to serve different goals ...

And because they are 2 different beasts, and because most people own already just two speakers HERE, i advocated for BACCH filters...

I did not do "theorycrafting" as you said ...And i dont need to listen to it to have an idea about what this will do even if the effect will change a lot between room and speakers choices or headphones and various recordings qualities choices even if my inner ears and HRTF measures are done ...Just doing simple mechanical imperfect experiment with crosstalk as i did is enough to have an idea about his importance ...

Anyway i apologize if i over exagerated some aspects of your post or interpreted them the wrong way...I am a passionnate dude and sometimes i reacted too much ...😊 To be precise i must write that often i reacted too much... 😊

And just a last precision, Choueiri is not an engineer but a physicist by formation ...

I will add that because you are very knowledgeable we are lucky that you participate in this forum... Then thank you for your patience with me ...

I wish you the best and a very merry christmas...🎄

“You do know that Choueiri himself has been a big spatial/object based audio/multichannel music connesieur in real life, right? as are many other known names in industry (A Jones, J Stoddard, Levinson, etc). The truth is...he can’t get anywhere near it because of all the patents held by Sony, Yamaha, Dolby, Auro, etc.”

I know for a fact that he considers multichannel to be as it is to be wrought with problems and plainly inferior. If there are going to be any arguments based on what Edgar believes let’s keep it real. I know this fact because I was standing right next to him when he said it. If you doubt me you can easily ask him for yourself through the Theoretica website. 

“He has to make a living as well and so he’s tailoring/marketing something to the 2 channel orthodoxy. You are getting stuck with his marketing lingo, as if it is a miracle like none other. It is fine for what it is (and that’s about it).”

He makes an excellent living as the head of the advanced propulsion department of Princeton University. BACCH is home s passion project. Your mischaracterization of him, his motives and his beliefs are pretty disgusting.