I don't want to beat a dead horse but I'm bugged.

I just can't clear my head of this. I don't want to start a measurements vs listening war and I'd appreciate it if you guys don't, but I bought a Rogue Sphinx V3 as some of you may remember and have been enjoying it quite a bit. So, I head over to AVS and read Amir's review and he just rips it apart. But that's OK, measurements are measurements, that is not what bugs me. I learned in the early 70s that distortion numbers, etc, may not be that important to me. Then I read that he didn't even bother listening to the darn thing. That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements? Help me package that so I can at least understand what they are thinking without dismissing them completely as a bunch of mislead sheep. 


And an appeal to authority does not make you a fellow Nobel laureate.

But it is a bizarre twist on the OP’s question.


Very comical! i never argued with you about some point...You put forward no point...

I was suggesting listening what these three persons had to say.,..And i explained why...

Saying that they are not idiots, but honorable recognized scientists, is not an ad hominem argument, because you NEVER MADE ANY POINT anyway to argue against here in a discussion ...

You can claim it is an ad hominem attack on you, but it I was referring to the person in the video


I am happy that you dont think i need thorazine... Good news ! But it is worst than i was thinking about you now...

You judge a scientist by his appearance in a video and recommend thorazine for him BEFORE even knowing what he speak about...

And you think your behaviour is ok ?

i am laughing right now to your high intelligence level...



I am glad you see a relevance.

Let’s agree that I am probably just not smart enough to catch it or appreciate it.

That is what really bugs me. If something measures so poorly, wouldn't you want to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? I learned that can be a big mistake. I just don't get it, never have. Can anybody provide some insight to why some people are stuck on audio measurements?

"what you hear?"

There is so many variables you as a human is not a constant your memory is not flawless changes with time. Yes I know it will com as a shock for most people.. YOU are not the best thing that has walked on the earth.. (i know I ain't anyway)


Emotions: Exactly same system (as constant) as human that system will sonically VARY in how it sounds from session to session. If it is the person state of mind.. or air pressure.. or weekend or weekdays.. and so on..

(The hard fix is to have multiple listening sessions over a long period of time to try to get a subjective average "opinion" of a piece of gear. That opinion is derived from a variable called memory that are anchored in feelings. That likely are from a different room system components and again state of mind.)

Variables: If a power amplifier is paired with one of many transducers, one of many cables (if or not that makes a difference don't matter but we can agree on that there is a placebo effect anyway even if you don't think it does any difference),  one of many pre-amps, one of many source medias, one of many source media playback devices, one of many... And so on..

The bottom line even if a reviewer genuinely thinks that a specific power amplifier is the best thing he ever have experienced. And it may be true.

But you can go home to him and borrow THAT unicorn of power amplifier and put it in your system. And you will not get the same result and not even if you bring over the reviewer home to your place to listen to his power amplifier there is so many factors that has changed that even if it is the same power amplifier (DUT) and the same individual reviewer. He will most likely say "oh, this is not how I remember it sounded at my place".. So many variables have changed. So we can ask our selves how much is his opinion worth.. ..in my opinion as much as watching a episode of Simpsons/seinfeld more or less just for entertainment..😀


If you take into account all variables all combinations, environment changes and so on. Then to do a review of piece of gear would take considerable amount of time to try to make it justice.

With that in mind and the knowledge that Amirat ASR has reviewed/measured many hundreds of pieces of gear. If he should make justice to all and one reviewed item then he or anyone else would not be able to conduct that in a lifetime with all the combinations..


So what value does it have if Amir listening to a component for a hour when nobody has a lifetime to waste on just listening.. the value of that listening session is more or less worthless.


I do not mean that measurements is be all end all.

But I don't understand why we should care about what Amir hear when he listens to a piece of gear? That is more pointless than the measurements when there is all of the above variables and more.


And what does "I only need to have my own two ears as measurements devices" mean.. 

  • Does it mean that your ears are better than anything else on this earth
  • Does it mean you have golden ears
  • Does it mean your experiences are greater than anyone elses
  • Does it mean that your are the only one that needs to like what you hear
  • Does it mean that your hearing is better than any messurment device
  • Does it mean that .. and so on..

Okay let's forget all the craziness above and attack the question from another method than discuss back and forth..


Have you done the experiment that you go to ASR and look up the WORST measuring power amplifier that Amir has measured.

There is a good candidate that is measuring that bad so it only performed half of the performance of the next worst one!

So it is a real under performer..

Then buy that power amplifier:

  • The idea is now you got a objective bad power amplifier. And you can listen to it for months in your system and evaluate it your self and knowing that this is as BAD it can get. That is as worse it will ever get.. .. for a power amplifier.

You will be amazed of the result!

And you will gain experience. And you will know what is the worst end of the objective spectrum of a power amplifier.


Nobody, does that and don't have that experience!

When everyone is always chasing the next best thing all the time and have no clue what the gap/range in sound quality to the worst one are.


Then you know how much measurements matters. If anything.

And also if THAT power amplifier is the worst thing ever produced and you might like it. Or you find out that the sonic gap/difference between them is so small so it is almost not worth talking about. Or if you hear any difference at all.

Then maybe reflect over all the individual reviewers that uses so big words to describe a power amplifier that they review! How can that small of a difference between two power amplifiers generate that amount of big words..

    ..oh it is just entertainment, and useful SQ info as watching seinfeld..


So maybe WE need to calibrate our ear-brain system when 99.9% of us don't know how the worst sounds like then we can't expect or know how much or little a specific component like a power amplifier can bring or rob sonically in a HiFi system.

+1000 @mapman @russ69

reminds me back in my corporate world days, some blowhards in meetings never cease talking, as if the sound of their own voice is the only music they like to hear

when they are (rarely) silent, you quickly realize they aren’t listening, they're just reloading...


to correlate the measurements with what you hear? Do people still buy gear on measurements alone? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As everyone here knows , I am the worlds biggest FR/WB fan=atic,, Due to the higher sesn vs your average loud speaker woofer + Tweeter set up, For me sens is EVERYTHING, I buy based only on 1 measurement Sensitivity. If a tweeter is not at the very least 91db **TRUE BONIFIDE real time* acutal, no hype, 91db, I would not even consider. Twetters have to be 92db - 94 db. Otherwose not remotely interested, Same for woofers,, I've looked over every woofer on the market, all fall below 92db. Which is why I went to Fulll Range/Wide band speakers,,,and never lookd back. I'm running dual FR + 2 tweeters, the T's are 91db each, But about to go w a 94db tweeter which will replace the 2 T.s 1 measurement, sensitivity is all that counts in my book.