Did harrypaul self immolate, again?
In term of construction, what's the difference between cheap vs. expensive power cables
When it comes to interconnects and speaker cables, it is easier to understand the justification for the costs of these cables. But when it comes to power cables, it is a little difficult to understand.
Some believe that as long as the power cable has enough gauge the that's all you need. I've used some cheap power cables vs. some high price cables and there are clearly differences in sound, so the "gauge" of the cables is not the ONLY thing and it's a little bit more complicated than that.
In speaker cables design, you can adjust the R/L/C parameters to achieve a certain kind of sound and it's easy to visual how these parameters will affect the sound. For example too much C then the sound will lack leading edge. Too much L then the sound will be brittle. If too much R then the sound will lack dynamic. Or if the cable has too much jitter, then the transparency will be affected.
But the power cable main job is to establish a DC source, it's not too clear how the R/L/C parameters will affect the sound the same way these parameters will affect the sound of the speaker cable. Also I am not sure how jitter would affect a power cable either
So the bottom line is what's actually inside a power cable that make them so expensive? Do they use fancy dielectric? How about construction geometry?
For a designer, I mean how do you fine-tune your power cable. How do you know your power cable will sound good?
Some believe that as long as the power cable has enough gauge the that's all you need. I've used some cheap power cables vs. some high price cables and there are clearly differences in sound, so the "gauge" of the cables is not the ONLY thing and it's a little bit more complicated than that.
In speaker cables design, you can adjust the R/L/C parameters to achieve a certain kind of sound and it's easy to visual how these parameters will affect the sound. For example too much C then the sound will lack leading edge. Too much L then the sound will be brittle. If too much R then the sound will lack dynamic. Or if the cable has too much jitter, then the transparency will be affected.
But the power cable main job is to establish a DC source, it's not too clear how the R/L/C parameters will affect the sound the same way these parameters will affect the sound of the speaker cable. Also I am not sure how jitter would affect a power cable either
So the bottom line is what's actually inside a power cable that make them so expensive? Do they use fancy dielectric? How about construction geometry?
For a designer, I mean how do you fine-tune your power cable. How do you know your power cable will sound good?
61 responses Add your response
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I got a question for you guys. If we use silver speaker cables, the sound will tend to sound a bit on the bright side right.My response is "it depends". I use pure silver IC's and SC and my sound is not bright. I think the brightness will depend on construction of the cable and how it interacts with the rest of your equipment. Silver is possibly more prone to brightness, but I think there are a number of other factors involved. If your system leans towards being bright, it's probably wise to go for something other than silver. If you can get a trail period to test the cable before doling out the cash, then there is no reason not to try a silver PC. |
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@invalid - I nearly ruptured my spleen laughing when I saw your post. @andy2 - When I was discussing my requirements with the folks at Wireworld they told me that the shortest PC they recommend is 2 mtr, and suggested I use 3 mtr lengths - which I did. I assume they dial in a little bit of capacitance in their PC’s, but have to hold back lest it causes issues with longer cords. I compared a 1mtr silver electra to a 3mtr silver electra and the 3 mtr does result in an audibly better sound. It’s subtle but its there. |
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Are AC line-treatment devices necessary? Define necessary. "We try to build equipment that puts up with dirty AC lines," Pass told me. "Our customers expect it, and if they have a problem, we hear about it. We don’t design around the assumption that there is AC line conditioning in the system. That said, if the line conditioning has adequate current capacity, we expect some benefit." You should read that last part a couple more times so that it sinks in. |
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My best advice is to find a good dealer that will let you try a few power cables you will know when you have found the right type for your system and put one on your amplifier first that will give you the mot bang for the buck change and price does not matter as much as the blend of the cord with your amplifier. |
@nonoise I didn't say you made it up. You're hiding behind someone else's words. Harry did make it up. At no point did Nelson Pass claim that his amplifiers won't benefit from a good aftermarket PC, and at no time did he allude that they wouldn't. As well as being ignorant, Harry seems to be a total liar also. Who would have thought right? Go listen to a bunch of power cords on your system and let us know if you hear a difference. I suspect Harry, or dletch2, or whatever this tiresome individual decides to call himself is either as deaf as a post or simply posting to get attention. |
And...How does having space between conductors improve cable performance? Especially power cable? There needs to be adequate space between conductors because everyone knows that noise is introduced when free-range electrons get to close together. Unless your power supply has a filter in front of it to keep them out the best way is keeping them far apart. Since electronics generate more of these rascals than would ever leak in from the outside I believe that's why UL and CE won't give certification to electronics that don't meet requirements for filtering free- range electrons from leaking out of the component into the mains. |
Power is 50 or 60 hz and filled with high frequencies dirty stray voltages. Good power chords provide an additional path to ground (capacitance of the cable) and / or additional resistance (inductance of the cable, ferrite cores) to clean the dirty fraction of the electricity. A good PC provides additional filtering, a further drop or bucket in the pool of good sound! |
@harrypaul - RE: How does having space between conductors improve cable performance? Especially power cable?It’s called proximity effect - google "proximity effect in cables" and you’ll find this link Proximity effect (electromagnetism) - Wikipedia It occurs in ALL cables and actually creates noise within the cables themselves.- power cables generate the most noise, then speaker and finally interconnects. However, both the signal and noise in Interconnects is amplified, so the impact is very noticeable Using a geometry that allows for space between the conductors reduces that noise. But - INSULATION is another source of noise
That noise permeates throughout any connected circuit and impacts the performance of those circuits, which introduces distortions into the signal However, let’s not forget we have left and right channels to consider, The distortions in each channel are more of a "random nature" so each channel is impacted differently. This "random noise" impacts the phase between the signals in both L & R channels, resulting in
Other articles you might find interesting... https://www.psaudio.com/article/cables-time-is-of-the-essence-part-1/ https://www.psaudio.com/article/cables-time-is-of-the-essence-part-2/ https://www.psaudio.com/article/cables-time-is-of-the-essence-part-3/ Hope that helps - Steve |
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I didn't say you made it up. You're hiding behind someone else's words. Go listen to a bunch of power cords on your system and let us know if you hear a difference. It's a relatively easy thing to do. It's what I and lots of others did, and the way you do it is real easy- you just listen to it. All the best, Nonoise |
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Local audiophile Dana denager came by for a nice long listening session the other day. When I removed Cable Elevators he heard the change from the first instant the first one came out. He was floored it made so much difference. There’s another even stranger tweak we demo’d, he was equally amazed. Then he challenged me to explain how power comes 300 miles from Grand Coulee Dam so how can the last 5 feet make any difference? I pulled one of my freebie rubber power cords out of a box and said, "Well by your logic this is the same gauge, handles the same current, it should make no difference then?" "That’s right." Okay, so we plugged it in. Played the first 30 seconds of Steve Miller Space Intro. Because that was all I could stand. It sounded so awful. Put the Moneoone Supernova back in. Started over. The instant the needle hit the groove I heard Dana exclaim, "Wow! That’s amazing!" The lead-in groove. Hadn’t even got to the music yet. Dana learned something very important that day. Two things, actually: 1) Power cords make a huge difference, and 2) anyone says they don’t is either deaf or in denial. Oh and 3) if you need a double blind test, forgetaboutit! |
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To me it blatantly obvious why good power cords improve sound. The power supply has the job of converting the AC mains source into a ripple free DC source for the B+ rail. The more noise the PC can remove from the mains before it reached the power supply, the lower the noise on the B+ rail will be. The higher noise on the line that enters the power supply, the higher noise will end up on your B+ rail. Individuals who claim power cords cannot help obviously have no understanding of the challenges to turn AC into clean, ripple free DC and the lengths some designers go to to address the issue. |
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@nonoise I don’t know how to battle exclamation points, and all caps give me a migraine. I’m with Mr. Lipman on exclamation points, even though Elaine is cuter. |
The challenge of understanding the mechanics of power cables and audio is nothing compared to understanding the psychology of denial. For those on the fence between learning a little bit and trying a power cable for yourself vs. going down the feral path of conspiracy theories, why not just be honest and admit that you just don’t want to spend the money and move on? If you try it and hear nothing, you get your money back. The danger is that you'll hear something and be out a few hundred bucks. If you don't want to spend that, then it's just much simpler to live with an economic argument based on frugality than on the notion that there's a conspiracy to defraud people of their money. Real frauds don't have return policies.That's all fine and good, but how are you gonna argue against anyone who uses all those exclamation points? 😀 All the best, Nonoise |
@andy2 - RE:
Of course trying to find all of these "features" in one cable is the hard part :-) One of the best I have found is Inakustik If you build your own from scratch you can have it all - see... http://image99.net/blog/files/be8de0c383c5434907610d6b55049e69-75.html Hope that helps - Steve |