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Kharma FE 3.2 - be careful, space crucial

I have 2 systems in my house - one vastly more expensive than the other, but the cheaper one is infinitely more satisfying, due to one simple reason: I chose the wrong speakers for the space they occupy. The speakers, the much vaunted Kharma 3.2 FEs are beautiful, coherent speakers, but cannot do justice to a room that is 23' X 17' X 15ft ceilings. Even with 8" of added height through Timbernation blocks. They just dont fill the space and strain to do so. They are better with added height, but dont fill the room with the visceral, alive, palpable sound and "being there" presence of the cheaper sytem. It's like sitting in the foyer of Carnegie Hall. The cheaper system is sitting in row 4. But when I look at options, I see that it is not so easy to sell these speakers - there is a mint pair on A'gon that cost $21,000, not selling for 29 days for $8,000. Resale of these expensive speakers is not easy, as I want to try a pair of Line array speakers in this large space, but to do so I would probably have to virtually give these Kharmas away for a song. So the message is simple: Look and ask harder questions than I did before you buy such expensive speakers that are not made for such large spaces. I bought them without listening in my room (obviously) but will not make that mistake again. The problem is how to arrange an audition of line arrays in my room. If anyone in the Northeast has line arrays in a similar space, including dealers, please let me know. Thanks.
Systems: System 1: 17 X 23 X 15 height: EMM CDSD/DCC2, Sota Cosmos IV, EAR 324, Shelter 901, OL Illustrious arm, A-S MP-1, A-S MA 2.2, PAD Dominus s/c, Gabriel Gold Revelation i/c, Kharma FE 3.2, 3 ft from rear wall, on 8" blocks.
System 2: 30 X 13 X 8 height: VPI TNT Jr, JMW 10.5 arm, Sumiko Blackbird, Wright WWP 200, Aesthetix Calypso, 2 X Moscode 401 vertically biamping Mark-Daniel Maximus Monitors, 7 ft from rear wall.
springbok10
jj2468
280 posts
 
Wow. I just bought a pair and they are crazy good in my setup. My room is about 13'w x 20'l x 9'h.

When you say its like being in the foyer, that to me means it sounds muddy and rolled off?

Would the subwoofer help to "charge" the room? They don't do ground shaking bass, but I don't believe that is their intent.

In my situation, the Kharma 3.2fe are detailed without edge, super transparent, have great natural timbre, have great prat, etc. Mine are place five feet from the short wall. The soundstage goes from wall to wall across and from floor to ceiling. When a recording includes a drum kit, you can easily hear the timbral differences between each skin and between each cymbal and that happens without any interference with the other instruments. Basically, they sound like real instruments and I cannot say that for about 97.53% of speakers I've heard.

Could there be some other factor in your setup in addition to the room or could you modify the room? You have my empathy. I know system and room matching are very important. My wish for you is that you can tweak your system or room to at least hear what these speakers can do.

Best, Jeff
springbok10 OP
711 posts
 
Shadorne, the furniture blocking issue is resolved by 8" wooden blocks as stands. But they still don't fill the room - I had blamed the chair, but even raising the speakers above the chair by 8" doesnt do it -the sound feels compressed - why a line array? because they are 6 ft tall and could fill the space better, have a bigger vertical soundstage and sound more holographic. (I am told)
Jeff, the sound is incredibly detailed and coherent and transparent - your room size sounds perfect - the volume of your room is 2340- cubic ft, mine 5865 cubic feet. That's why yours sound perfect and mine dont!No they are not muddy, the soundstage is just too low and small and sounds strained at high volumes. I listen to everything, but not rock at about 80 db. Mostly classical.
nutella
223 posts
 
Try this. Place your speakers 7.5 to 8 feet from the rear wall and 4.5 to 5 feet from the side walls. Place your listening position about 8 feet from the speakers. At this position you may hear more of the speaker and less of the room. But bass will not be reinforced from room boundaries.
I was surprised how well my speakers performed by placing them further into the room. You still may need a sub for the bottom end. Borrow any sub you can to see if this helps the bottom and if it does, try to find a very good sub to supplement the Kharmas. If what I have suggested is of no help, you can sell your Kharmas to me.
Cheers.
shadorne's avatar
Ag insider logo xs@2x
shadorne
7,467 posts
 
the soundstage is just too low and small and sounds strained at high volumes.

I don't doubt you are using premium quality amplification in which case either

1) You may need a sub - to fill out the LF.
2) The midrange and tweeter are compressing somewhat at the levels you like (Classical is the toughest form of music for a speaker as it has the most dynamic range - and needs to be cranked to sound loud where as pop/rock can sound loud on mini-pc speakers)

I think point 2 is most likely based on your comment about "strain" - that tweeter is working down to 1.75 Khz - as in most two ways if something is to give then it will be this tweet as it starts to compress (driver excursion increases dramtically as you do lower in frequency). This is a quite common problem with beautiful sounding audiophile two ways...they typically make the tweeters work too hard - so at elevated levels they get strained. You get utterly fantastic sound and great imaging and fantastic dispersion (dome tweeter) from these two way designs but you don't often get great dynamic capability....and guess what => that is why Kharma make the bigger models for customers with large rooms who want that great Kharma sound but find they strain/stress the smaller models!

A properly amplified line array may do it for you, however, so would a good three or four way speaker or a D'appolito design or a pro design with pro drivers. Your speakers are beautiful so I would suggest an aesthetic speaker designed for a dynamic presentation - like big Wilsons, Egglestons or the bigger Kharma designs (which use Appolito which has TWO midrange drivers to get over the driver compression limitation at extremely high levels - no strain!).
dennis_the_menace's avatar
dennis_the_menace
467 posts
 
ouch is right. i feel for you, i've been there, buying speakers based on reputation, and then realizing they just aren't what i wanted, or in your case, wouldn't work in my space. i've done both. it's a painful lesson. this last go around, i ended up auditioning many speakers before i tried a new pair, and did a lot of serious research on how they would fit in my space. good luck, when you get to a place where you like your speakers and they work in your room you'll be that much happier and this experience will keep you from pulling the trigger on "upgrades" that really could just be expensive painful lessons. i know that's how i feel, i'm much less inclined at this point to just swap out gear for he sake of trying something new.
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