"Musical" subwoofers? Advice please on comparing JL subs

@northman: " ... at what point in the frequency range can most humans begin to discern notes, melody, tone, ... music"

20Hz

No kidding. Notes are just frequencies. Melodies are just a sequence of notes. Tone is mostly a measure of pitch of a repetitive sequence of notes over a certain time period. And timbre is a combination of frequencies.

If you think someone incorporating the low A key of a piano is music then it starts at 27.5 Hz. If you think music starts by someone plucking the E string on a 4-string electric bass then it starts at 41Hz.

Seriously, if you think this tone can be incorporated into something called music, then it begins at 20Hz.

Personally, I think you're wasting your money with JL. A subwoofer's job is flat response, low extension and as high an output as you need for your application. Beyond that it's all about room placement, EQ and room treatment. It only makes sense to consider JL if unobtrusiveness is of primary concern, but there are still much cheaper options (unobtrusiveness is why I have three Paradigm Seismic 110 in my living room and a Velodyn Microvee in the bedroom). If you check data-bass.com you'll see how JL performs (not good) against cheaper subwoofers. I'd much rather have three SVS than one JL for the same money.

@slimpikins5--NICE! I bet the French bistro was Lunig's. "The Valley"--Warren, Waitsfield, and the Sugarbush region in general--is just beautiful. I live about ten minutes from Smuggs and skied there all the time when my kids were young. By the way, I was skiing (not ever close to your league!) in the mid 70s, when Stowe was still a small town and Okemo had poma lifts.

@desktopguy, thanks. I've heard much the same about the e110. And: I'm not using a big room, I don't need to go below 25hz, and disco sucks. (Yes, I was one of those guys in the 70s; now I love it!)

@jssmith, I appreciate your comments. I really do understand what you're saying: "notes are just frequencies." I'm drawn to the art part more than the physics, so I'll just add that Thelonious Monk, Jerry Garcia, et al were doing something pretty special with those frequencies.

Good Morning,

 Back again with my opinions and findings and report of the crow I had for dessert last night!  Well, after pontificating that most of us can not move our subwoofers around the room, I tried exactly that; 
My Carbon Limiteds (or any sub I tried) lived just inboard from my main speakers, perfectly nestled between speakers and my low center equipment rack / wall mounted TV.  A fairly common set up, and esthetically pleasing.  Well, recall my issue with boominess of bass on certain tracks (certain heavy bass frequencies).  My REL Carbon Limiteds have wireless LongBow, but I was not using it as the sub's location was very close to my amps.  So I reconnected the wireless, and began shifting the subs around a bit. (This is one area that an 80lb subwoofer beats a 110 lb subwoofer hands down!). I ended up with one way over in the right hand corner and one way over in the left hand corner of the room, both facing inwards. 

Low and behold!  The reinforced boom at around 30hz was minimized, and the soundstage and airiness was enhanced!  I could not locate the subs with my eyes closed and everything sounded better!
I listened for hours with a smile on my face!  So old dogs can learn, it just takes patience.  My purist mentality is still preserved (no EQ), and I am loving the REL's, which, as many keep saying, completely disappear
when set up (and located) correctly.  My phase switch setting did change
as well by the way.  Also, perhaps the imaging and soundstage benefit from 'less stuff' between the speakers?
Smiling in Maryland...Ken

Just an observation to report in with. I had an early version V4 sub from Axiom which had the switch type phase control. It only offers two or so options for phase alignment. Axiom redesigned it into a fully variable full range phase control in later version V4 amps. Ian did an experimental design amp for the monster EP800 V4 which had a custom response curve in two switchable curves. A normal ’flat’ response curve and one with a neat boost in the middle bass ranges for some real punch. He spent hours in the anechoic chamber developing the curve. He offered to custom build me a new amp for the EP800V4 with the dual response curves and he even engraved the amp panel with two settings; I asked him to do Bourbon Smooth for the flat position and Gin Gut Punch for the boosted ’party’ setting. He got a kick out of that and its what I have on my amp, nicely laser engraved. Here is one thing he also did, he included the new full range phasing control vs. the original switch setting phase I had. I was able to see the results of the phasing now upon installation of the new amp and I can say that it is amazing! a two position switch doesn’t cut it, its useless. When you get down on the floor and fine tune the phasing, you dial it in with just the slightest turn one direction or the other and there it is!  Keep in mind that where it all syncs up varies with the room, the sub placement, how many subs you have, etc.   If you understand what zero beat is with radios; for example zeroing a receiver frequency exactly with Fort Collins WWV, this is pretty much what you do with a variable phase control. Its fast and easy and the subs are in total sync, there is no boomy out of phase difficulty with the bass, especially in odd locations in the room. I think a variable phase is a must have when it comes to sub woofers and I know that Axiom/Bryston has it now on all new subs they offer... the best single change they made.

When I think back to when I got into 'subs' using the large name subs out there (and I tested a few including the Paradigm super monster with some outlandish power and if I recall a 15 inch driver), none of them did anything right for me.  The bass was always just bass, mucky, bland heavy handed bass, often shaking windows or dishes unnecessarily so.  What I have now is silky smooth, powerful musical, wonderful, perfect, BASS.   You don't feel like the bass needs to be adjusted up or down and changed for each track you listen to.  It all plays exactly like the recording engineer meant it to be played, it's perfect.   I think design is critical in subs.  My most beautiful piece is my Bryston Model T sub, this thing stands around 45 inches tall, 10 inches or so wide and 17 inches deep.  It's a slim, tall sexy looking thing in Black Ash wood veneer with triple 8 inch cool looking drivers.   Due to the smaller driver compliment, it really does the mid and upper range bass super well, but it is big on low end output too as it pushes a lot of air.  The EP800 with the dual stacked 12 inch drivers handles the freight trains very well :).   The single 12 inch Driver EP 500 is my sweet spot go to sub, I just love this thing.   They also make an EP600 which is a larger cabinet version of the EP500 and I'd love to test that one out.  Perhaps when I go to a four sub set up !

@northman

I hear you. My room is 12X11, so I know of what you speak. My near field system has two subs. I chose the REL T/7i over the JL simply because I value Class A/B over Class D in an analogue system. If I were digital I might not mind Class D. They are nearly the same price.
People just don't understand that in a small room there is barely enough room for 2 subs let alone 4. With record storage and equipment there is just enough room to walk.