Herb & Bifwynne ...
Don't be surprised if the amp improves, then takes a little step backwards. This has happened to me on both the REF-75 and the REF-75-SE. By "backwards," I mean a little darkening in the presentation. It soon emerges from that temporary stage to new heights of clarity and musicality.
I just hit 150 hours on the REF-75-SE this morning and the damned thing is glorious. My favorite vocalists are in the room with me.
Happy listening ... |
I now agree. That disc which sounded better through the Bel Cantos, hours 12-15 on the 150SE, now being played at 25 hours sounds better, though still without the clean detail that I expect. Yes, the sound got more congested, but now is beginning to clear. |
@Oregonpapa -- Yeah ... well I hope I'm still alive to find out. ARC shipped it to me on The Slow Boat to China Trucking Company. I just call ARC to see if they can use The Road Runner Trucking Company. Hoping they can. Otherwise, I won't get my amp until next week.
Sh*t ... I shipped it via FexEx Ground to ARC and it took 3 business days to get it from Philly to ARC. |
Bifwynne ...
Why didn't they use UPS? Jeez, my REF-75 came back via UPS and the guy even carried into the house for me. |
Oregonpapa ... Kal said the Ref 150 is just too big for UPS and FedEx and ARC insists on using a pallet. Box and amp weigh 90 pounds. Don't know how much the Ref 75 weighs. Well that's the story anyway. Looks like the amp is scheduled to be delivered this Friday after all.
Based on Herb's reports, looks like I gotta break it in a bit before I hear the benefits. Ce la vie. |
04-22-15: Bifwynne
Oregonpapa ... Kal said the Ref 150 is just too big for UPS and FedEx and ARC insists on using a pallet. Box and amp weigh 90 pounds. Don't know how much the Ref 75 weighs. Well that's the story anyway. Looks like the amp is scheduled to be delivered this Friday after all. UPS and FedEx will ship less packages than 150#. According to Kal, ARC switched to freight for safer transport. Once a service request is created, ARC can arrange pickup from your home with ARC corporate discount. With my Ref250, 2 packages going freight will be expensive even with ARC discount. |
Got the amp back yesterday. The sound is "bigger" for sure. Will save detail comments after more listening and break-in. Kal said the amp needs 125+ hours. But I surmise that I'll hear a lot of the improvements much sooner than that.
As an aside, ARC shipped the amp on a pallet as stated. Even still, the box was gouged in a few spots. Fortunately, no damage to the amp or tubes.
Let's face it ... moving heavy, bulky gear around is risky business. |
I now going to 50 + hours on the amp. Right now all cds sound as good as I ever heard in my system, very detailed and extended, bottom to top, incredible staging. How much better will it sound when I head past 100hrs? Time will tell. But, I am so very pleased with the present sonic presentation. |
Herb ...
Glad you're enjoying the amp. You still have quite a ways to go on the break-in. I'm at a little over 100 hours now on the REF-75 SE ... and it continues to improve. I listened to the Tony Bennett/Bill Evans album last night ... and my gawd, they were in the room. The clarity on female and male voice is simply astounding. |
Still early to post detailed comments. The sonic color of the amp is still morphing ... first dark and now bright. I only have about 25 to 30 hours on the amp. |
I am now over 70 hours and sonically I am at the point where I can say that the resolving power, detail, staging, lower distortion level (which I usually describe as the lowering of veils between the listener and the musicians) is noticeably better than the amp was before the upgrade.
What additional levels will I hear when the amp approaches 150-200 hours the burn-in time that Kal referenced? |
out of curiousity (and as i need a repair soon), how much time did some upgraders spend without their amps? 3 weeks? more? |
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Herb ...
How's you 150-SE doing at this point?? How about you, Bif?? |
Just have 45 hours. Getting better. It sounds better on some source music selections than others. Still to early to say. But it definitely sounds different that the Ref 150 avec KT-120s. |
It also took 3 + weeks from shipping to return.
I'm at 123 hours and the sound seems pretty stable.
What I am noticing is that the system is noticeably more revealing, pulling out a bit more detail, deeper and more realistic staging from even poorer recordings. The system is just so delightful with which to listen to music. |
Ok ... my amp has racked up 100+ hours. My impressions are very positive. The music sounds liquid and open. The amp's ability to drive my speakers is effortless, particularly at loud dynamic transients.
Imaging and sound stage are great.
All in all .. much better sounding than before. |
Good luck, continued good listening. |
mine is in MN for the upgrade and the repair i mentioned. will revert my experiences in a month+ once i get it broken in, as kal mentioned several coupling caps were changed in the upgrade and cap formation takes time... |
Nirvana is reached at the 200 to 300 hour mark. |
Oregonpapa ... I'm over a hundred hours and am probably "there" for the most part. But ... my Ref 150 was already well broken-in prior to the SE upgrade. Kal said the new SE upgrade parts (e.g., coupling caps) only need about 125 hours or so to break-in.
In contrast, you bought a new Ref 75 SE off the line. If the usual ARC break-in period guidelines still apply, you're only half way there.
Enjoy. I already am enjoying. |
Bifwynne...
Pleased to hear that your decision to upgrade is delivering for you, were you advised as to the full parts list involved in the upgrade? and could you clarify please that Kal was referring to the main 2 Micro Farad/350V coupling caps? As folks should be made aware that an element of the SE upgrade kit may well replace their units Teflon CC's with the newer Gold PP film capacitor of Capacitor Gate fame. |
Bifwynne...
Pleased to hear that your decision to upgrade is delivering for you, were you advised as to the full parts list involved in the upgrade? and could you clarify please that Kal was referring to the main 2 Micro Farad/350V coupling caps? As folks should be made aware that an element of the SE upgrade kit may well replace their units Teflon CC's with the newer Gold PP film capacitor of Capacitor Gate fame. |
Tsushima, I do not know which parts were replaced. The only "obvious" change that I can perceive is the coupling caps. They are still white, but slightly different looking. That's about all I can say. I have no real idea about what else was done ... above or below the circuit board.
All I can say is that the amp sounds better than it did before. Kal told me off the cuff that the Ref 150 SE is roughly equivalent in SQ to the GS-150. |
Kal did say that the SE upgrade included new coupling caps, but he didn't state much else about their type or specs.
Btw, you described the new caps as Gold PP film types Other than a new white plastic can, I can't tell if the news caps are the type you describe. I just checked under the hood. The caps have a number designation of H3275. They are rated at 425V and I think 2 mF.
Tsushime, I just got a nasty shock when I put the cover back on. My finger brushed against the PS caps. Please control your curiosity. :( |
Well that's me entirely confused Bif!!!
As far as I was aware the GS150 sports the newer gold coloured non Teflon coupling capacitors as do/did late production Ref150's like my own.
Have ARC now flipped once again and returned to the White Teflon's for SE models ???
Can you recall the colour of coupling caps as sported by your own Ref150
Prior to the upgrade? |
Dull/flat white cans. The new caps are in shinier white plastic cans. As I previously posted, I do not know anything about the innards of the CCs. Why not call or e mail Kal and ask him? I learned my lesson about fiddling around with my amp.
In the meantime, the electric shock I previously posted about left me with an interesting side effect. Like Uncle Fester, I can energize light bulbs. I surmise that I absorbed 1040 joules of stored energy. |
Uncle Fester?? *lol*
Have you noticed the new white wires and the way they're twisted? Both the wires and the "twist" are part of the upgrade as well. Don't ask me why or how ... I'm at the age where I'm still amazed that airplanes can fly without propellers. |
Yes Oregonpapa, I did notice the new wires and the odd twist. That's the part that cost $5,000. LOL NOT :(
@Tsushima ... someone else asked me whether the SE upgrade included new PS caps. During a follow up call with Kal, he said no. And he also assured me that the SE upgraded Ref amps are identical to the Ref SE amps coming off the line.
That may not directly answer your question about the gold caps, but it should assure you that ARC is not putting 2 classes of Ref SE amps out in the market place. There are no second class citizen SE amps.
In a certain way, I like the idea that my Ref 150 amp was upgraded to SE status as compared to coming off the line as an SE amp. Reason: my Ref 150 was fully broken in when it went back to the factory. And it was a necessary part of the SE rebuild process that the amp was checked over from bow to stern. I take that as a good fact.
Oregonpapa ... the Ref 150 SE sounds terrific. I'm listening to Linda/Nelson records now and googling over Linda. I love her. |
