newbie 1st post 2 channel reccomendations.

Nantic: Sorry you feel that way about it.

I think you are totally ignoring (among other things) the possibility of psychological influences in an environment not under your control. Believe it or don't: your expectations of how something will sound can influence how you think it sounds. Especially during a short "test" situation in a dealer's showroom where you are not intimately familiar with all the other components and the acoustics of the room. The most valid subjective "test" of the strengths and weaknesses of a component is: live with it for a few months.

How do you know that the volume levels were the same? I hope you are not saying that you know the levels were the same because the volume control on a pre-amp was set to the same position! Odds are the levels were NOT the same if that was your "control"---because of differences in voltage output from the various CD players

I urge you to reconsider, if not now, at least at some future date and go through a double blind, or at least a single blind test. (in a single blind test the tester knows what the source is but the subject does not) I think you will be shocked at how differently you will hear or not hear differences in the components.

I ain't exactly calling you Chicken, but. . . you picked up the gauntlet and said that you would subject yourself to a blind A-B test and report the results. What happened? Is it scientific method that you object to?

I have never before been accused of sounding like George Bush.....;)

Not to hit below the belt, your reaction to the application of just a little scientific method to subjective evaluation reminds me of Dubyah hurling the epithet of "Fuzzy Math" at Gore to indicate that all them thar’ numbers and statistics wuz jes’ fancy talk designed to befuddle and confuse the Common Man. In this case, since we are discussing digital components, I can't resist the rejoinder of, "Fuzzy Logic!" right back at ya.

I'm glad that we appear to agree on politics.....if not hi fi.

Get over yourself My Friend.

All one needs is a sound meter to insure the Levels are same.

And as I said the test was done with same MFG CDP all having the identical output levels.

We live in a real world.

Double blind testing is for Engineering geeks with no personalities and no real Lives.

hello all;

demoed thiel pcs (didn't know they were pronounced teel so i thought the guy was talking about colors) and dynaudio contour 1.4 yesterday in santa monica through krell electronics. thiels had huge soundstage sound filled up the whole room, piano was ok but really excelled berlioz. dynaudio's sounded soooo good with the piano (bach) that i was sure that i had found my speaker then put in berlioz and they didn't sound so good. much smaller sound stage than the thiel and easily localized. thiel's were alot more invisible.

left the store happy that i had listened to a couple more speakers but knew i had to do more listening.

went to optimal enchantment also in santa monica and randy the owner showed me the vandersteen 5a which was incredible. i thought i was listening to live. was blown away. we talked alot about the different speakers in the vandersteen line as well as jm labs models but i didn't have time to listen to anything else. he offered to set up a demo of high end vs. lower priced systems as well as tube vs. ss the next time i came which is exactly what i need. he wasn't as outwardly enthusiastic as vince the sales guy mentioned in previous post but was seriously into music, and gave me alot of food for thought.

this brings me to a new dilemna. how do we justify buying used gear here or new gear online when we receive great service from the brick and mortar. this was not a problem for me when i purchased my ht because alot of the places i went to didn't expend much effort on me and i bought alot of gear from an online dealer who happened to have his shop locally. i want to support these dealers, but should i do this at the cost of thousands of dollars. right now, my inclination is to buy local and after i have more experience purchase used gear online and sell it if i don't like it, which doesn't seem very practical to me but will allow me to upgrade at a lower cost, and purchase locally when if necessary. how do you deal with this issue. as always, all input is greatly appreciated.

aloha keith

Nantic: you are kidding yourself.

You say in your most recent post here, "All one needs is a sound meter to insure the Levels are same." (sic) Do you mean to imply that you had one in your possession and used it in the course of the "test" that you describe?

I didn't think so.

You claim that you auditioned three Naim CD players "all having identical output levels." You think that is so. But it ain't.

Guess what, my friend, Naim only makes three CD players and according to their specs they do not have the same output levels.

The top of the line CDXZ has voltage output of 2Vrms @ 1 khz and an output impedance of 50 Ohms.

The (mid) CDXZ has voltage output of 2.1Vrms with a maximum output impedance of 10 Ohms.

The CD5 has voltage output of 2.0V w/ the same output impedance spec as the CDXZ

The higher its' output impedance and voltage output the louder a CDP will play--all other things being equal. I don't know if the 40 Ohm difference between the Naim units would make a significant difference. That would have to be measured. Did you check that out with your "sound meter?"

Are you going to accuse me of George Bush-like "audio speak" again? Are you willing to consider that "a little bit" of scientific method might be a good idea?

A hi-fi store is not a church, or other place of worship where we check our skepticism at the door and don the mantle of Believer. It seems to me that you are falling into the trap assuming that just because your trust in your dealer may be well founded, based on his character, that he isn't under a misassumption.....which you have adopted. That is Religion not careful audio evaluation.

Shall we shake hands and make up?

Atagi: you are doing the right thing by doing a lot of listening to a variety of gear in a variety of venues.

A few suggestions. Reduce as many variables as you can. For example, select a few "test" selections from CDs that you are familiar with and use the same music to audition with, wherever you go. Maybe you do or don't like violin music. The old "E" string on the violin (the highest pitched of the four strings) in a good recording can and will expose overly bright sound reproduction. I suspect that if you listen to some fiddling on the Theils and then on the Vandersteens you might decide that the Theils are forward and aggressive in the treble and that the Vandersteens are a little veiled.

What is important is that you focus on what you are listening for. How good is the bass? How transparent the midrange? How extended the top end? And so forth.

As to the ethical dilemma you raise: you are absolutely right. The dealer is nice to you because he is a nice guy AND because he hopes that his investment of time with you will put a few dollars in his pocket down the road. The "right" thing to do is to buy the product you like from the guy who introduced you to it and spent the time with you. But how many of us can actually DO the right thing when discounts and/or used gear may be available elsewhere?

Good luck with your Quest and keep us informed (while we quibble among ourselves).