NOS DAC's without any digital filtering?


How are these DAC's able to perform as well or better than DACS that use filtering to diminish aliasing effects? I understand that there are some who believe that the best sounding DAC's in the world are NOS/non-filtering. How is is this possible?
robertsong
How are these DAC's able to perform as well or better than DACS that use filtering to diminish aliasing effects? I understand that there are some who believe that the best sounding DAC's in the world are NOS/non-filtering. How is is this possible?
Robertsong
Robersong, when you talk about aliasing effects, you are usually talking about a filter that comes BEFORE the converter (be it D/A or A/D). Such an anti-aliasing filter is almost always used when we employ A-D conversion. The anti-alias filter band limits the incoming signal between 0Hz & Fs/2 which is the fold-over frequency. Fs is the A-D converter's clock frequency. The purpose of the anti-alias filter is to prevent frequencies between Fs/2-Fs to fold into the A-D conversion band & create distortion/aliasing.
In a D-A converter you might not need to use an anti-alias filter since the incoming signal is a digital bit stream. In many D-A converters there is a PLL type IC used that locks onto the incoming bit stream, extracts the clock from this bit stream & by PLL action cleans up this extracted clock. Cleaning up the clock would mean reducing the jitter (or in analog terms reducing the phase noise of the extracted clock). If the incoming bit stream is sync'd to this clean clock, one can directly feed this bit stream into the D-A converter.
I *think* you mean to write "reconstruction filter" which is the analog filter after the D-A converter. Is that right?
While it is true that many non oversampling (NOS) DACs do not use explicit analog filters, they still filter the DAC signal. There are many tubed output stage NOS DAC where the tube itself acts like an analog low-pass filter that has a -3dB bandwidth of 22-25KHz. In other cases where the output stage is solid-state, many NOS DACs use a SInc filter where the sinc filter has a 0 amplitude at, say, 60KHz. This would mean that lower frequencies (such as 30KHz, 40KHz, 50KHz) are heavily attenuated (but not zero amplitude) such that any clock energy in this frequencies is also heavily attenuated.
So, contrary to what meets the casual eye, there is analog filtering taking place - either using the natural roll-off of the output tube or employing a higher freq sinc filter.
I think one of the key reasons that NOS DACs sound as good as they do is that they do not use up sampling or oversampling which is a digital filter to interpolate the incoming music signal as the incoming signal's data rate is increased from 44.1KHz to something higher. This digital interpolation filter is essentially software devised/created/invented by the manuf & it is a sophisticated algorithm to interpolate while keeping the distortion to a minimum as defined by the manufacturer. If you agree with the manuf then you will like his/her interpolation hence upsampling/oversampling DAC. If you don't agree, you'll be back in the market hunting for another DAC.
When you buy an up/oversampling DAC you are essentially subscribing to the manuf interpretation of guessing at the music signal as the data rate is increased. That's why there are so many different up/oversampling DACs - each manuf has his/her own interpretation of this process & nobody is right or wrong; they are just different. The other thing is that since they are up/oversampling i.e. DSPing the incoming signal, the original music signal has been changed much more than if one were to use a NOS DAC. Any time you meddle with the original signal you add distortion, no matter how little. And, this can detract from the listening experience a little or a lot.
In a NOS DAC if one keeps the electronics to as precision circuits as possible then this sort of DAC does the least required to convert the incoming music signal to an analog equivalent. OTOH, an up/oversampling DAC does the most processing to covert the incoming music signal to an analog equivalent.
Of course, as in all of audio, NOS DACs are not always the best - there are many excellent up/oversampling designs.
"09-22-15: Roxy54
Chill Zd, it's just his opinion."

Normally I would agree, but the last thing he wants to do is help anyone. He makes ridiculous claims that he can't back up and pushes them off as facts, and when you question him, he doesn't give an answer and then does the same thing in another thread. Here's an example from a thread about choosing a dac.

"
08-16-15: Coli
Actually, older DAC tends to sound significantly better than modern DAC, especially if it's R2R and limited upsampling (or better yet NOS)."

"08-16-15: Arsh
Thanks Coli. This is getting confusing. Are you suggesting that my old TriVista would still be competitive with today's DACs? I guess the only way for me to know is an A-B comparison in my system. But I had assumed that new ones would easily beat mine. Anyone?..."

"08-16-15: Coli
Yes, do A?B comparison. There are some really high priced snake oil DAC out there so be careful."

"08-17-15: Arsh
Coli, which ones do you consider "snake oil?" Thanks."

"08-17-15: Rhanson739
"Coli, which ones do you consider "snake oil?" Thanks."

"08-19-15: Coli
Snake oil DAC: PS Audio Directstream "

"08-19-15: Coli
Actually, there's plenty of high end DACs that sounds no better than cheap AV Receivers."

"08-20-15: Rhanson739
Coli,
So why didn't you mention those, as well?"

"08-21-15: Zd542
"08-19-15: Coli
Actually, there's plenty of high end DACs that sounds no better than cheap AV Receivers."

I'd like to know as well. Its not often that someone takes a high end dac and compares it to the dac in a mass market receiver, while in the same system. I'm sure everyone here would find the results of your comparisons to be valuable information. "

"08-22-15: Rhanson739
I doubt that we will get a legitimate response from Coli/ilok regarding his comment.

Coli is mad that the Directstream didn't work out for him, and is now spewing his vitriol for all things PS Audio at every chance he gets. In another forum, he called PS Audio a "dishonest" and "disreputable" company, even though he never tried to work things out with the company.

Classic case of projection. Coli can't accept responsibility for his own situation, so he one denigrates the company and product as being responsible for his "suffering"."

"08-22-15: Coli
Seriously, try Onkyo reciever/processors, they sound better than most $2000 DACs.

High priced DAC are scams unless you go for those custom R2R NOS Dacs.

Although NOS is coming back in the main stream again, Marantz AV8802 uses "super slow roll off", which is very close to NOS or is basically NOS."

"
08-22-15: Coli
Here's another tip, look up the chip the DAC uses, if it cost under $10, you should pay at most $500 for it. Eg: Burr-Brown, Sabre, AKM. You can get the same sound out of consumer AV receiver/processors (if you want XLR) for far cheaper, plus you can go multichannel processing.

Onkyo and Marantz are just so far ahead of DACs in terms of sound quality and bang for the bucks.

Also, avoid all FPGA DACs, those simply sound incorrect. Maybe they'll fix it in 10 years with firmware upgrades, but you'll be able to buy them dirt cheap by then.

If you want things to sound better, invest in balanced power and a reclocker. Once you got those 2, every DAC based off of $1-$10 chips sounds the same."

"08-23-15: Arsh
Thank you, Coli. I have not listened to those units. But it seems there must be other factors that influence sound, like circuit design, power supplies, tubes, parts quality, etc?"

And that's just 1 example.
Zd,
I see what you mean. There is certainly a strong aggravation factor when you read a post that makes an absolute statement that is presented as fact, not just opinion.
There is another frequent poster whose name I won't mention who jumps into many threads with a silly blanket statement (usually no more than 5 or six words) which either makes no sense, or is not backed up by any supporting facts or arguments.
If you're not talking about me, it must be EBM. It took me a long time to figure him out, but he's usually just kidding. But I know what you mean, its hard to tell. In hid defense, he'll immediately apologize if you are offended by anything he says.
I immediately thought of Ebm as well when I read Roxy54's post. Some of his snidy posts make me laugh.
good to know he's joking because sometimes I cannot be sure - he writes with such a straight-face.
let's see if he posts here now or not...