NOS Western Electric wire used for power cables??

Early in this thread I made two posts, raising what I consider to be legitimate questions and concerns, from the perspective of someone who, as I stated, has no particular knowledge of the products. Based on what has been said in the subsequent posts by Ben and many others, a follow-up seems appropriate.

One of the two issues I raised concerned the merits of the product, and whether it might simply be an attempt to capitalize on the aura that surrounds the name Western Electric. It seems to me that that question has been satisfactorily answered by the many subsequent responses -- the product obviously provides good value to many people in many systems.

The second issue I raised was to question the present and future integrity of the wire's insulation, in view of its age. Obviously, that concern only pertains to those of Ben's products which are made from many decades old WE wire, which was the subject of the original post. I raised that issue because, as I stated, I have encountered MANY cases of brittle and crumbling insulation on wiring in 1930's radios I have restored.

In many of those cases, the insulation consisted of a rubbery material, perhaps similar to the rubbery material used on the WE wires, or perhaps not.

My feeling is that the many subsequent posts have provided grounds for considerably increased confidence with respect to that issue, but obviously not 100.00% confidence. So as Elizabeth said, the issue has been discussed, pro and con, and we can all make our own decisions.

One last word, concerning the debate between Ben and Simply_q about "low resistance." It seems obvious to me that both parties have a good understanding of the electrical principles involved, and anyone familiar with Simply's post history will realize that he is exceptionally knowledgeable about many technical matters. The controversy arose because of differing interpretations of phraseology. Ben was using the term "low resistance" as contrasted with zero resistance. Simply_q interpreted the term as being incorrectly used in contrast with high(er) resistance.

I suggest that we make an effort to consider the intended meaning behind each other's words before adding unnecessary fuel to the fire.

Regards,
-- Al

Fuzzbutt17

Let's start with electronics 101...

When you shorten the length of a wire or circuit (commonly known as a "short") you LOWER resistance.

If you were to connect a wire between the hot and neutral of a power outlet, simulating a "short" in a power cord, you would trip your circuit breaker. This is because there is no LOAD or RESISTANCE on the circuit and full current is flowing through the breaker.

Now that we've established that Simply Q knows NOTHING about how electronic circuits work, some of you may consider taking any other advice he may have.

The only thing that's been established is that you never got beyond Electronics 101. There's this thing called the real world where things don't always work like the overly simplified and idealized versions presented in textbooks.

In the real world, a "short" isn't just an idealized zero ohm bridge between two conductors in the circuit. When I refer to higher resistance, I'm talking about the resistance of the shorted connection. If it's an exceedingly low resistance, then it won't cause any heating to speak of.

However higher resistances can cause heating, heating that can be sufficient enough to cause a fire. And the levels of current required needn't be so high as to cause a breaker to trip or a fuse to blow.

And it's not just shorts that can cause a fire. Partial opens can as well. This is where there is a failure in the wire that results in a higher resistance than there would otherwise be, such as a crack in a solid conductor or the breaking of a number of strands in a stranded conductor.

It was a partial open that nearly caused a fire in my attic several years ago due to an improper splice that was made in the wiring over the kitchen by the guy who did the lighting when we had it remodeled.

And in cases such as this, the breaker doesn't trip because it's caused by the normal levels of current flowing through the wire.

Over the past year I've taken back product from both direct sale customers and distributors and either replaced it with newly upgraded versions or upgraded it for FREE.

Is that an option that's available to everyone who has purchased your products? If so, then I would have to say that is quite admirable. You shouldn't keep it such a secret.

As for "pride"...

Anyone that's been reading this thread wouldn't doubt the pride I have in my products.

I didn't say you didn't have any pride in your products.

I was responding to your having said that nothing gives you more pride than selling to Asian customers. For that to be the case, it means you somehow have less pride when selling to someone in say, the US or Europe.

That just seems a little strange to me.

Mintzar

Boom goes the dynamite. Simply Q, it is obvious to me that you are bashing a product and an honest businessman for the sheer purpose of bashing him.

I haven't bashed any particular product.

All I said was that I wouldn't recommend using the cloth insulated Western Electric wire for power cords. And I said that because it's the cloth insulated Western Electric wire that most people out there are using for things such as speaker cables.

The original poster didn't ask about any particular type of Western Electric wire or reference any particular person or company selling cables using Western Electric wire.

And in spite of my making it perfectly clear that I was only referring to cloth insulated Western Electric wire, instead of simply saying that the wire he was using wasn't cloth insulated, it was rubber insulated, Fuzzbutt17 instead used the opportunity to start a whole marketing campaign.

Hello Al,

Thank you for your honest questions.

When you are looking at a brittle insulation inside of a component, it is the result of YEARS of heat. Often this is caused by internal components in an old radio, such as the tubes, and has nothing to do with the viability of the original wire.

I have seen MANY modern UL listed extension cords fall prey to the same "symptom" from years of the wire heating due to excessive current draw and modern internal wiring due to a similar chassis heat.

I can not speak for ANY wire aside from the wire I use.

It is QUITE supple, flexible, and in what I would consider "like new" condition.

I have some of this same wire that has been used in audio power cords for over 10 years that is still supple, flexible, and shows no signs of wear or aging.

I recommend that any person purchasing cords, cables, or raw wire only deal with a trusted professional so as to minimize the possibility of purchasing improperly stored, aged, or rotted NOS wire.

As for Simple Q, he may be knowlegable, but it was quite obvious he was looking for a fight if you read his comments in context.

Also, in the case of a power cord having a short, it is ONLY possible that it would create a lower resistance path.

It would create a zero load situation, at least for an instant, until either it blew the breaker or melted the shorting strand.

There is NO POSSIBLITY of a higher resistance situation.

Simple Q...obviously a fitting name.

Don't say I didn't warn you about showing your ignorance of electronics.

To start with you are mixing some truth with some falsehoods.

When you have a short the ONLY possibility is that you have LOWERED resistance. This is because you have now put a lower resistance path in parallel with the original load.

The reason it heats up is that being the "path of least resistance" all the current wants to flow through it rather than the proper path of higher resistance.

You create a situation where only part of the wire is conducting all of the current and it heats up much in the same way as the filament in a light bulb or the element in an oven.

A short will do one of two things: trip the breaker or spark and melt the strand of wire.

Unless there are HIGHLY flammable materials around this micro-spark it is not going to cause a fire.

When you have an open circuit that is a different situation. It creates a "spark gap" that causes heat as a spark of current jumps between the two near touching conductors.

It is not "higher resistance" at all. It is a SPARK GAP.

You are correct, that in this situation it will not trip a breaker and can cause a fire.

Higher resistance is what happens when you have too much current draw on wire or connector. This is common when light duty extension cords are used for heavy current items.

In this case, so long as the current draw is lower than that of the circuit breaker, the wire will heat and degrade the insulation causing a fire hazard.

A circuit breaker doesn't sense resistance, it senses amperage/current draw. In the case where you are plugging too many devices into one circuit it exceeds the amperage rating and trips the breaker. In a case where you have a short it creates a path of low/no resistance which in turn conducts too much current and trips the breaker.

Now for a more complex situation.

A power cord that has been crushed and the insulation is worn though causing an INTERMITTENT shorting.

In this case the wires are shorting and sparking.

If for some improbably reason it doesn't trip your breaker then you would obviously smell it.

Electrical fires often take place in VERY old components or buildings where heat or spark ignites dust. This is a situation where the electrical components are being used beyond their useful life.

UL listing can't help.

The other category of common electrical fires are USER ERROR where a person exceeds the maximum rating of a cord or connector or is using a damaged cord or connector.

UL listings can't help you here either.

As for pride in selling to Asian customers...

That is different from pride in my products. It is the pride of re-claiming what was lost.

At this time in history the US owes a significant percentage of our national debt to Asian countries.

There is NO DOUBT that this is going to end badly for our children and our children's children.

Signs of recession and financial imbalance are all around us and only getting worse.

If you can't understand my pride in selling US made products to the countries to whom we owe the most debt as a nation then your understanding of "balance of trade" and "international finance" are as limited as your knowledge of electronics.