Mmakshak, I tried running my Nuforce Ref. 9s single-ended (directly from my APL Denon), but I got quite a bit of noice (hum). A friend of mine also tried running his Opus CD Player direct using single-ended interconnects to my pair of Nuforce and experienced the same noise problem. So I've been running balanced cables from my APL to the Nuforce, and the noise is much lower (almost inaudible). By the way, the Nuforce (and the APL) are very revealing, so any change in cabling you will hear. Wait until your APL Denon has about 200 or more hours of burn-in. It is really a magical player. Have you tried running the APL direct to the Nuforce? Does yours have the AKM DACs? I am very happy with this combo. Now I just some room treatments to dial things in.
Pitdog75, Any reviews out there? I tried to find complete specs but they were not on web. What associated equipment are you using with these? Did you have Nuforce before Audiomatus? It would be absolutely amazing to me if there was another company with a better price and equal sound. I would not even consider the belcanto evo's. The bandwidth of the Nuforce and damping factor are far greater. Completely different type of power supply on the Nuforce and I dont think any other manufacturer can use it. I guess I would call them class AS for analog switching power.
cheaper alternative for Nuforce, great sound for the buck: http://www.audiomatus.com/indexang.html, possibly at least as good as belcanto or nuforce...
Ggil, I have heard an even later version of the APL Hi-Fi Denon 3910 with Nuforce 8.02b's(with Cardas adaptors for my single-ended preamp), and I have to say that even though the APL had less than 50 hours of the 200-300 minimum burn-in, that unless you are really way up there in tube-land, that they sound fine(or better). I'm not sure, at this point, that cd's that aren't recorded in analog, to begin with, sound good. This is with little experience in this area, but I will try to update as I go along in my listening.
Everyone needs to realize that the Ref9 is way different than the 9.02's. If you still have the 9 get it upgraded to 9.02. Some people are saying the 9.02's with extended bass are too bright but I beg to differ because it is not happening in my system with all silver wire. They need over 150 hours run time to be sure. Also I would leave them on all the time. Also, I think Ggil has a great set up for these.
Sorry for the confusion. The price bracket I meant is where the Linn Klimax Chakra-ML 431 is. So about 6-7000 USD. We used an ML 39 and a TACT 2.0 as cd player and preamp.
You stated "as good as any good solid state amplifier in the price bracket". Do you mean in the price bracket of the Nuforce? If so, what are you listening to? Because I've never heard a solid state amp anywhere near this price range that comes close to the Nuforce. Granted, I haven't listened to any of the newer digital amps (except the Spectron). The Nuforce Ref 9s are about $2,500 for the pair, and virtually every solid state amp I've heard (with the exception of the Dartzeel) sounds very sterile, which is NOT how I would characterize the Nuforce. At least not in my system. I've never heard either the ML 431 or the Linn Klimax Chakra, so I can't comment on them. I would say that system synergy plays a large role in how good (or bad) these amps sound.
This weekend with a friend of mine, who is owner of a Nuforce9, we made extensive listening session in my system (see system). I personally think, that the Nuforce9 is as good as any good solid state amplifier in the price bracket and soundprint somewhere between the ML 431 and the Linn Klimax Chakra. Very extended, very quick, very detailed - still it is - to my mind - a typical 'hard' sounding solid state design. In many ways more 'thrilling' soundprint than my Aronov 960LSI tube integrated, but I still felt tonally not correct for acoustic music. Maybe, If I would hear mostly electronic music, I would go for the Nuforce. But with listening preferences of classical music, I think that it is tonally too hard and too 'metallic'. None the less, we have also tried the Nuforce9 plugging into a PS Audio P300 Powerplant. That was a shocking experience. With the P300, the character of the Nuforce has changed completly, resembling more to a rather darkish solid state amplifier, instead of a rather brightish ML or Linn Chakra.
The mid bass sounds great. I really think I have a magical combination of speakers, digital front-end, and now power amps. I didn't listen critically to the Nuforce amps until they had 100 hours on them (upon the dealer's advice). But while I was burning them in (somewhere around 10-15 hours) I casually listened and the mid bass sounded somewhat shallow. But I dismissed it since the amps hadn't burned in yet. But now, I don't hear that shallowness at all. They sound great. These amps are definitely one of the most satisfying audio gear purchases I've made in years.
Ggil, how does the mid bass sound on your system? Regarding the HiFi+ review, the unit was taken out of the box with no break in period and reviewed. Would they do that with a 10k amp? I guess it depends on how much the mfg. pays the reviewer. What is funny is that Nuforce claims they do not pay reviewers to write about there findings. Denf has the best idea, review it on your own system and give them 100 hrs or better break in time. I found that they even get better around the 150 hr mark. Nobody is saying they are the best in the world, it's just that they sound awesome for the price.
Lacee - I wouldn't put too much into the HiFi+ review. The lastest review from Positive Feedback online, by Robert Levi is MUCH more accurate, IMO, as to what the NuForce's are capable of.
Ggil's thread pretty much sums up my enthusiasm for these amps as well. If the NuForce's were priced based solely on performance alone, they would be over $10k a pair. Thank the audio-gods that they are not, as they have allowed me to experience a quality of sound reproduction that I didn't think I would ever be able to afford, let alone hear.
With a 30 day trial period, ANYONE in the market for amps at this price (or quite a bit higher), would be missing out on something truly special - again, IMHO.
Well, I've had my Nuforce Ref. 9s for a few weeks now, and I have to say that I am VERY pleased with them. These amps are much more dynamic, have better bass extension and control and are much more revealing than my ARC VT-100 MKII. I've been an all tube guy for years, and I was very happy with the ARC until I heard the Nuforce in my system. The Nuforce amps do NOT sound like any other solid state amp I've ever heard. No, they don't sound like tubes, but they don't sound like the solid state amps I've heard either. I will say this, I don't think I would be as happy with the Nuforce amps if my digital front-end didn't have a tube output stage. The combination of a tube preamp with these amps is perfect for my taste. Last weekend I brought my pair of Nuforce amps to our local audio club meeting and they were driven by a very good quality CD player (with no tube output stage), and to me, the sound was a little too accurate for me. But, everyone's taste is different. I would say that most of the other members of our audio club really liked the sound. I would highly recommend auditioning them in your system if you get a chance. Especially if you have a tube preamp or your CD player has a tube output stage.
Read the HiFi+ Issue 42 review.They also felt there is less to the amp than some would have us believe.Opinions on the sound of this amp vary, so maybe there are unit to unit differences,hence my initial reaction. I wanted to like them,but the pair I listened to didn't do any of the things that the reviews said they would.Maybe they have a sound that is appealing to some and not to others.
Jp1208, I received the Reference 9s yesterday. They are the extended bass version and I'm burning them in now. I plan to put about 100 hours on them before doing any critical listening. I am running an APL Denon 3910 (the latest version) with balanced interconnects from Ridge Street Audio (Poiema III). The interconnects are silver, but in my system, they are not bright. I'm running my APL Denon direct to the Nuforce amps. Once they are burned in, I will compare the extended bass version with the standard and report back!
Ggil, single ended silver wire did not work for me. It was too bright and lost the richness in my system. I will go back to the bi-wire configuration. I am going to look at some other options on wiring after I get a better pre/amp. I also have an upgraded cdp, actually two of them from the upgrade company. Modifiying units by the right people are the only way to go!
Ggil, sorry about that. Single ended wiring rather than a bi-wire configuration. I have double shotgun runs that are paired and running bi-wired. This weekend I will take one set off and see what happens. These amps still have room for improvement and you will have the option to upgrade down the road. They can make these babies much better. Nuforce is still just scratching the surface. I can't wait to add one of there pre/amps. Let me know when you get them broken in.
Jp1208, I heard the 9.02s. I'm not sure what you mean between single ended vs. bi-wiring? I listened to them using balanced interconnects connected directly to my front-end (APL Denon 3910). My speaker cables are shotguns (Acoustic Zen double-barrel). I'm still shocked at the performance of these amps. The hardest thing to get over is their small form factor, light weight, and price... quite frankly. It's hard to imagine such little amps, that cost $2,500/pair competing with an $18,000 Dartzeel amp. But that's exactly what they do. It's a real paradigm shift. They are definitely the real deal! If these amps are any indication of what the future holds for high-end audio, we are all in for some amazing sound (and bargains) as this techology matures.
I spent quite a bit of time recently comparing the Nuforce 9.02s to a McCormack DNA-500. Let's just say that the difference sonically is a lot less than the difference in price. The Nuforce truely are exceptional bang-for-the-buck amps that compete very well with the big boys.
My only caveat is that if you are big into FM or have a TV/tuner nearby, you may have some difficulties with RF interference (I did). That said, there are ways to isolate/shield your tuner/antenna and I'm sure Nuforce will ultimately address this.
With all that said, I bought a used McCormack DNA-500 -- an amazing amp!
I find these amps really interesting and promising, but feel like they are still early in their development. I think I'll check back in with them down the road.
Ggil, from what I understand the extended bass has more bandwidth and there is no need to bi-amp these. Did you heare the 9's or 9.02's? I have not done this yet, but I was also told single ended rather bi-wiring was better. That can change from system to system though. We will see.
Jp1208, I just ordered a pair of the ref 9s with the extended bass option. Last night I had an opportunity to compare a Dartzeel NHB-108 with a pair of Ref. 9s. It was set up in my system, playing through a pair of Von Schweikert Audio VR-4jrs and I'll tell you, the Nuforce amps were not embarrassed by the Dartzeel by any stretch. The Nuforce amps are the real deal IMO. The Dartzeel definitely had a more refined, analog-like sound, but the Nuforce were pretty darn close. There were 3 of us listening, and I think we all came to the same conclusion. With some tweaking and system-tuning, I would bet you can get 80-90% of the performance of the Dartzeels with the ref 9s. From that listening session, I decided to order a pair. The pair I heard did not have the extended bass option, so it will be interesting to hear the differences between the two versions (extended bass vs standard).
Plato, these amps rock! I am glad I took the advice given to me. The other advice given to me is to get there p-8 pre/amp or wait for the p-9. The p-8 could be more of a bargain than the 9.02's. They are possibly way over built for there price range. I think you will start to see reviews on those p-8's soon. The 9.02's sound better plugged into my dedicated circuit than they do into the panamax. The panamax slows them down and they sound a little on the dark side. If you like the sound a little dark then there you go. I had a Proceed hpa-3 which is 250w and these little amps kill it in every aspect. The bass that these produce is not typical of a ss 160w amp. The slam is amazing and accurate. If there was a problem with the first run of these amps I would have to say they are fixed. I will be dealing with the vibration control later but for now I dont want to touch em. I am probably going to get the p-8 and run it into my Arcam AV-8 if it is compatible. The p-8 has a HT passthrough so I will investigate that option. By the way my 9.02's have the extended bass version. Maybe the best sound to value ratio out there!
Positive Feedback have given a"positive" review of the improved Ref9,now the 9.02.It seems as if there was something not quite right with the original version, so I guess my ears are still working.
I've received a few inquiries about my previous post above and it would seem that some may have taken my comments regarding mfg'ers attempts at vibration control were directed at the Nuforce amps specifically.
To clarify, my comments about mfg'ers attempts at vibration were NOT directed toward Nuforce products in any way. Near as I can tell, Nuforce attempts to stay away from this area which I think is ideal.
Furthermore, as a Nuforce dealer, it would have been rather unbright of me to offer unsolicited negative comments about a product I sell and of which I am so fond.
I just want to show appreciation for Plato keeping us informed about Nuforce(i.e., what works with them, what updates do, etc.). Some of us don't have unlimited money.
Again, I can't wait to read all the responses. Does Nuforce have to take all this stuff for producing a state-of-the-art amp for $1600? Their mods cost less than nothing. Are you guys that negative?
I couldn't wait to read all the responses. I just want to say that I agree with Plato wholeheartedly. I listen only to analog(for those not in the know, that means 1981 or earlier albums). I have Nuforce 8.02b's with Cardas adaptors. Don't listen to the naysayers. Their Technics amp(no offense) is the Nuforce's equal. Yeah, right! A Corolla will outhandle a Porsche.
You Guys re-inforce the Nuforce Problem, I admire your Honesty and Reply, to the Fact that Nuforce is "Not" at this time addressing chassis Noise. Fact is, I've spent many weeks & countless hours Tuning the Noise out of a digital swithing amp, of all the designs I've encountered, swithing Amps are the most, By Far! and Away! affected by internally Generated Noise. The Good News, Once the "Noise is Canceled", I'll put it on the line for Ya. My amplified signal took on "TRUE" tone and a "SWEETNESS", which can only be associated with original Performance, which is locked in the software. Give yourself a "lesson" if I only knew my Nuforce amp could sound every bit as Tonely Good as the finest single ended amp? I'd give my right arm? well it does'nt cost & arm or leg for that matter, Adjustable Still Points, 3 of them under your amps, inverted, will let you drain off all noise in your chassis, Call on Paul Wakeen, www.stillpoints.us Don't say I told you so.
As one who dabbles with performance-oriented racking systems utilizing the resonance energy transfer (aka coupling) methodology, my limited experience tells me that as you said any product's performance can be influenced(sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse) via chassis tweaks.
My take on the chassis tweaks would be to eliminate or minimize the dampening within the chassis and instead tightly couple all internal components to the chassis which in turn should be tightly coupled to the racking system which in turn should be tightly coupled to the sub-flooring system.
Thus providing an expedited exit path for the air-borne vibrations captured instantaneously but which can only dissipate over a period of time (like a reverb).
The more tightly coupled everything is, the more instantaneous the mechanical transfer occurs.
I find it frustrating when mfgers of otherwise good performance-oriented equipment make half-assed attempts at internal vibration control and internal line conditioning. First, the consumer is forced to select that mfgers choice of methodology (which is often times an inferior methodology) and second, its usually through some cheap $5 part like a tiny AC filter or a certain silicon glue or dampening plate and third, theres usually nothing the consumer can do to rectify the mfgers poor choice or futile attempts since the methodolgy is often times so embedded into the product.
So in my opinion that otherwise well-crafted product is now deemed worthless or worth less in my book.
I think the chassis issue is being way overdone here. Obviously the NuForce amps wouldn't sound nearly as good as they do if the chassis affected the sound that much. And the chassis is more substantial on the Reference 9s than it is on the Reference 8 series.
I used to know a highly acclaimed audio designer who told me he could put his circuits in a cardboard box and they would sound about the same -- and maybe better, because there wouldn't be ferrous metal next to the circuitry. He'd say, "Sure, give me another $500 to $1000 and I'll put it in a real pretty box for you -- but it will still sound the same."
Beyond that, I have to say that I don't know of a single piece of audio gear (no matter how stout the chassis) that doesn't respond to chassis tuning tweaks.
Unsound, the Ref 9s will provide 300 watts rms at 4 ohms and almost 700 watts in short term peak power. If that's not enough for you Jason intimated that NuForce will be coming out with an even more powerful amp in the future.
Perhaps we're comparing apples to oranges here. Those heavy chassis drive the cost up considerably. I have to believe there is a less costly way to make an appropriate case.
I don't know what nuforce is doing in the Future, Sure would be nice if they'd improve their now current model amps, by using thicker gauge alloy and some damping of any kind? to chassis! I mean they could of stuck the anolog technology in a card board box! enough said. As for 500 WATTs, we may be waiting on the wrong company, The Amps That quite possiblly can Beat Nuforce soniclly are found at www.gilmoreaudio.com The MegaRapture will make 500 watts, and the Gilmore Amps use a "Really Good Chassis" This company understands that to have a good digital swithing amp, for crying out loud! you have to put it in a good, thick, heavy chassis, well damped, ect. My guess is that the nuforce amps ring, like tuning forks? Very depressing to say the least. In ending, I'd like nuforce to go back to the drawing board and get their chassis beefed up before I buy mine?
There is only one way to know for sure how good the nuforce amps sound, "I Kid You Not", Listen To Me. All Amp generate Noise! Resonences, they Vibrate, Hum, and so on, One only needs to place 8s or 9s on Maple Block just big enough to hold them, possiblly weigh them down with about five LBs of lead shot spread evenly accross entire top of amp. Now in equal triangle set Stillpoints with height ajusters under Maple Block, scewing the Stillpoints up and down, while listing you will be able to effectively drain off all Noise from chassis and Amp, "Stillpoints Can Do This" You will here your Amps for the First time with out noise being added into swicthing ICs, this is critical because of the shear speed of the ICs can "smear" or distort any noise thats innerduced in to them. All equipment that us audiophiles use generates noise, there isn't one that can't be Vastly improved by direct ajustable hight Still- points, Try it, You'll "Freak Out!" and become a Believer like me.
Unless there was a particular problem with this pair of amps, the sound of this system was not very pleasant noted by all including the dealer . The Nuforce line in this case was not added. I was disappointed as a customer that it did not sound the way I had read that it should.
It is hard to comment without knowing how much breakin the dealer has allowed for the amp and whether anyone has attempted to re-configure the system or adjust for speakers toe-in position (toeing out). If you read many of the reviews (from professional reviewers to serious audiophiles) from magazines to online forums, they have taken the trouble to tune their systems. NuForce is ruthlessly revealing amount many other things. In addition, NuForce is a very neutral amp and it present the recording as it is. You don't find people describing it as warmth or sweet (to me that's distorted sound but hey, there is no right or wrong, music is very personal). So by introducing a neutral amp into a system that has been very well compensated can suddently appear off balance. Jason
I'm getting excellent results with my Reference 9s using a PS Audio UPC-200 AC line conditioner. I think it's always best to use some form of AC line filtering when possible.
As for using pucks, cones, and such, I've experimented briefly with some of those things, but I'm presently getting great results with the Ref 9s standing on their own feet on a couple of corian planks set on my carpet.
I've recently had a sonic breakthrough using the Benchmark DAC-1 via its fixed outputs through a buffered, unity-gain solid-state linestage and then into the Reference 9s.
To my ears, using the Benchmark's variable outputs directly into the amps produced a very detailed and intimate sound, but one that was on the bright and thin side of reality.
Then, rerouting the Benchmark, using its fixed outputs through my buffered linestage and then into the amps literally transformed the system. The soundstage dimensionality literally took command of the room and all of a sudden there was a richness to the lower midrange and bass that just wasn't there before. I am amazed at the transformation. I believe this is the best sound I've heard from any system at any time. It is most certainly the best sound I've ever experienced in my current listening room by a considerable margin. Obviously, the system could not sound this fantastic if the Reference 9s were not doing their part.
I'll be curious to hear your impressions of the Reference 9s in your system once you have a chance to play with them and do some listening. They will definitely show you what the rest of your gear is doing or not doing and you'll be well rewarded for each compatible system change you try.
Jason, thanks for your response. I already have a Panamax 5300. How will that work for me? In the next week or two these amps will be put to the test against Levinson 33's driving Grand Utopia BE's. Even if they are close and can drive these speakers especially in the low end then they probably will be regarded as a giant killer. I believe the ref 9 with the extended bass will be used without any internal mods. Do you have any recomendations for vibration control for Nuforce amps? I am using black diamond racing pucks and cones for my cdp and they work great!
Here is the list of equipment used in the demo of the Ref 9.Pre amp- Mark Levinson 32s,Cardas Golden ref cable,Gallo Ref 3 speakers(no bass amp added),Shunyata hydra line conditioner,Cary cd. Unless there was a particular problem with this pair of amps, the sound of this system was not very pleasant noted by all including the dealer . The Nuforce line in this case was not added. I was disappointed as a customer that it did not sound the way I had read that it should.
Plato, I have two of the ref 9's on order with the extended bass option. Do you know if these amps should run through a power conditioner? I have also heard that bi wiring with double shotgun runs of silver wire is excellent. These amps have outperformed tube amps in the 10k range. This is coming from audiophiles that spend a lot of money on gear and are not dealers and are not affiliated with Nuforce. If they felt that there amps outperformed these after extensive testing then they would not use the nuforce amps. After I heard this I ordered them right away. I feel you possibly had the same experience. I will be driving JM Labs 936's with these amps. If you have any other info to share regarding these amps I am all ears.
Markalarsen, Go to 6moons.com, they have pretty much reviewed all the flavor of the week digital amps, including comparisons of older generation bel canto as well. They did EAR, Bel canto, Audiosector, Nuforce, Tripath type, ICE power type... Etc...
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