xboom - thanks for the info!
Passive vs Active...Again!
My wife and I have made the rounds and have listened to numerous speakers now, not as many as we'd like, but as many as we could within a 3-hour drive. We liked some both active and passive, but it seems most of the active speakers we saw are not that pleasing to the eye (eg: Genelecs).
Not having a dedicated listening room, our room itself is a big problem. We have lots of hard surfaces to deal with.
If we go with passive speakers and the associated gear to go with it, we will need to spend a whole bunch of money on acoustic treatments.
We have a ton of artwork as well and with already limited wall space, we would rather look at the art than a bunch of sound-absorbing panels.
So here's my question: Will active speakers, that may come in cheaper, with room correction software (DSP) be able to tame the sound to a pleasing level in my lively room, or do I go with passives and break out the Rockwool!
Just a side note, I had some Martin Logan Spires in a very similar style room, that was much larger with little acoustic treatments and they sounded pretty good. But in this house I don't have the room to pull the speakers 3 feet of the back wall.
I know there is no perfect answer here, but appreciate any feedback, thanks.
68 responses Add your response
If the room is small, I'll vote for active speakers. And I can also recommend active ATC, but they are not aesthetically pleasing though. Price around USD8000.
My experience in choosing a pair of speakers was really quite interesting. I found that in order to have sound quality that of active speakers from USD2000 - USD8000, passive system need to be 2.5x or more the price, that includes pre and power amps.
Shortlisted the Elac FS408 with ribbon tweeter, made in Germany. But the total price with pre and power (2 mono blocs) comes to about USD18000.
After much homework and leg work, I settled for active speakers, Neumann KH310A. 8" woofer, 3" mid and 1" high. I have a small room and such speakers fit really well and need not be away from wall. The placement is only about 4" away from wall. Plug them into a power regen and the sound quality is that coming out from class A amps. Really nice! Using a DAC pre-amp to drive the XLR connections, trying to keep min components as space is very limited.
I wouldn't worry about lifespan of 15 years as someone stated due to repair. My previous speakers were passive Focal and the rim had disintegrated, and dust cap fell off. I called Focal and other repair shops, none carry the drivers anymore. So after 12 years, I have to throw them away, no choice. If the active speakers can last 15 years and no longer repairable, IMO it is time to replace with new speakers.
Have fun searching and good luck! |
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Kii 3 note: The Kiis can also use component input if one so chooses as well as fully self - contained operation. Darko's Review: Removing the room with the Kii Audio Three loudspeaker system - YouTube @djones51, the two reviews @erinsaudiocorner suggest the two models - Kii 3 / D&D 8c are neck n neck in terms of presentation as the notes state. |
" Ugh " ... don’t despair ... the two descriptions / perceptions are very different offerings within the respective two presentations. The being is that impressions can be transitional and straight up change! My tendency is to relate more to the evaluation at erinsaudiocorner because it lays out some of the variables very well. Darko’s comparison is quite good but it does reflect darko’s preference of presentation and that may change ... and consider that Kii 3 does allow for some tonal shaping ( my understanding ). Darkoaudio posted two YTvideos featuring an Acoustic Treatment System recently and I am interested in the impression darko may relate about the ‘ differences ‘ before and after. BTW is the ceiling - (in your room ) a dropped ceiling?
The upper right corner ... And keep in mind that if the choice tips in favor of Hegel ( for example ) then how will you make a decision about a Loudspeaker? I think that the Kiis are somewhat unique though and you may want look in different direction. Which is why it is good to weigh some options. Timing was important for me in how my System developed.
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rego - So I just watched this and said, that’s it, I’m going with Kii 3s! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_f5H7S2ZJo Then I watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrp5SXNwHp8 and Darko like the passive option better. I was considering the Hegel H390 with a pair of KEF R11’s (or if I could squeeze it a set of the KEF Ref 1’s as per Darko’s shoot-out). My problem is the room which it seems the Kii 3s will do the best in, but I also love that "Laid Back" sound of the KEF (which I have heard, haven’t heard the Kii’s). But then I’m back to the room problem if I go passive. Now, I’m really confused Did someone say UGH!
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@high-amp, looking into the Kii 3s, I found some info / evaluation - Erins Audio Corner. Kii Audio THREE Review (erinsaudiocorner.com) Scroll to the latency settings part for some insight into the Kii 3 response. The Radiation Pattern is described as Cadioid as is unusual by comparison. The video goes into some detail for explanation of in room response. |
mike_in_nc - "The simplest thing is just to use some headphones -- you don’t have to consider the room at all, and you don’t have to learn anything new"sorry Mike, never have been a headphone guy and never will. I like to feel the music. As far as learning, I love to learn, but I just want to listen to some music, I do not want to spend hours upon hours re-engineering the wheel.mijostyn - yes, but 3’ is still quite a ways off the back wall, a minimum for any dipole speaker.otooleme - Thanks for the tip, not sure about the older model Vandys but I have heard some of their newer models and they weren't really my wife and I's cup of tea.
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Perhaps a hybrid answer will be right. The Vandersteen speakers at the higher levels feature passive above 100 or 200 hertz (depending on model) with 11 bands of analog eq to adjust the powered bass to your room. They are also set to measure flat at the speaker not the listening position as that is how instruments work. The result is you don't have a brightness that would light up your space. These speakers are the only time and phase correct designs throughout the entire lineup. They are not everywhere as they were in the 80's but if you seek them you will find a great dealer to help you audition them without pressure. If you have trouble arranging a demo just call the factory. Richard Vandersteen (founder) is still there everyday to help you out. I am the global sales manager and can be reached at brad@vandersteen.com |
I've tried many DSP preamps. The DEQX was one of the best sounding but most complex to set up. I sent it back. Others are much simpler to operate. Still, a good result with DSP is never free. It takes energy and time get great results. The same is true of a lot of audio, whether it's speaker positioning, integrating subs optimally, or even choosing the right components for your taste. I would not recommend DSP to anyone who can't put in the reading, and the trial and error. They would not be happy with it. The simplest thing is just to use some headphones -- you don't have to consider the room at all, and you don't have to learn anything new. |
@atmasphere , You can put dipoles closer to the wall but you have to use effective sound deadening behind the speaker. My Sound Labs are three feet off the front wall. The wall behind the speakers is covered with 4" thick acoustic foam. @cindyment , Line source (floor to ceiling) dipoles not only limit reflections off the floor and ceiling but also off the side walls. I have been using DSP since 1995. It will not fix certain room issues and yes, the optimal tune is at the listening position in terms of time and phase but then it always is isn't it? DSP provides speaker control not room control. Subwoofer management is IMHO the most significant benefit. It allows you to put the subs where they work best and still sinc them with the main speakers. You can use up to 10th order filters and get away with it. Next is in room EQ. Location and size are determined by phase/time and relative volume. Phase/time are not so much a concern with one way ESLs but the relative frequency response of the two is. The exact same speakers will have different frequency response curves because they are in different locations. Then there are differences in tolerances of the many components. With serial in room measurements you can tweak the frequency response curves so the the two are within 0.5 dB 100 Hz to 12 kHz. (a lot of work) Switching the EQ on and off by remote at the listen position discloses a wife noticeable increase in image specificity. Voices that were once difficult to distinguish are now separable. Same for massed horns and orchestras. The sense of an instrument with space around it is heightened. This is what I call the 3rd dimension not how far back on stage a voice or instrument is. The images are no longer flat as if spattered against a glass pane. Another interesting occurrence with a system tuned this way is balance becomes more critical. I find myself tweaking the balance several tenths of a dB from one recording to another to get the energy centralized. Before balance was a set it and forget it issue. IMHO DSP will improve any system and it might be the only way to get to the absolute sound. |
OMG! Have you seen this: https://www.deqx.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/DEQX-User-Manual.pdf Completely out of my level! Don't they make anything automatic anymore? |
sandthemall - very creative, some great ideas, thx! dinov - +1 atmasphere - thanks Ralph, that's what I kinda though.yogi42 - Paradigm 120 h - yes, I saw these when they first came out and I'd love to hear them, problem is, where?
kingharold - https://www.deqx.com/products/hdp-4/ - stuff like this is really cool but I don't think I could figure out how to use it. I bought a microphone online and downloaded Room Perfect. I got so confused I returned the mic and deleted the software!
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There are a lot of sneaky ways to make a room art friendly and also ’acoustically sweet’. These two objectives have a lot of overlap and you can satisfy both masters by careful planning.
My wife will not tolerate acoustic treatments in our living room. So I made a compromise that really worked for both of us. All artwork must not be behind glass...so no picture frames. What we have on the wall are canvas paintings, fabric tapestry, wood carvings. Even the chandelier is a perforated brass affair. The only shiny smooth surfaces are a TV on the long side wall and the full width window on the back wall. A wool throw blanket covers the TV during listening sessions and we selected heavy velvet drapes for the back window. Everything on the wall and floor has a diffusive or absorbtive quality. We have a hardwood floor so we chose the biggest wool Persion rug we could fit in our room. You would not know this room places a high priority on acoustics but it actually makes the room more interesting. Everything from candle holders to vases have an acoustic signature. I simply place the harder, smoother vases in other rooms. The wood and heavy textured pottery stayed. We have lot’s of live plants next to window. It’s visually and acoustically sweet.
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@high-amp Just so you know, this statement is false. Open baffle speakers need to be about 5 feet from the wall behind them (like any speaker with rear-firing information). Otherwise the ear will interpret the reflected information as harshness. |
I did include a picture as an attachment above of the room dimensions but lengthwise it's about 24 feet and it's a bit of an L-shaped it is 26 feet long into the kitchen and steps back in 10 feet into the great room and then that wall that is going to be mirrored eventually is 12 feet. I have a proximately 12 feet on the back wall for speaker placement from the corner to the door into the next room. |
I use a DEQX HDP 4 preamp/DSP with my fully horn loaded tri-amplified DIY speakers. The room correction software in this component does an excellent job of producing a sound free of most room problems in the sweet spot, but I have to admit that it fails to provide as effective a correction well off axis. |
Here's a couple of shots and some measurements of the place before I purchased it This is the back wall, wife would like to mirror the wall to the left to make the room look bigger plus reflect the view. I don't think she'll like acoustic panels on the mirror...UGH! Far wall, showing all the widow and I think drapes are out. Measurments:
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elliottbnewcombjr - Great pics of your place and great suggestions as well. +1 on the PATIENCE thing...Thank you!cindyment - Hey, no need to apologize, Kii 3s are up for discussion, I'm even negotiating as I write with a dealer 2 hours south that may let me have a demo! By the time you add up all the separate components and room treatment on top of that, I'm sure things would even out price-wise. Spires? Loved them but they need space off the back wall. I would probably go open baffle if I had the room again?
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Final Thought, My Latest Kick Buy an inexpensive SPL Meter, and a Test CD meter doesn’t need to be perfectly calibrated, it gives answers, at ___ location this 1/3 octave is more or less than the prior and subsequent one, up and down the line. Move the speakers, adjust the toe-in, tilt them back, move furniture, PATIENCE.
this test cd has selectable 1/3 octave bands, so easy they come with holes for tripod, put in listening position/height, see what you get and see effect of changes. not looking for perfect, just the best you can |
Sorry @high-amp I got carried away. I thought they were up for active discussion. Room treatment purchased is expensive. Room treatment made is inexpensive and can be exactly the aesthetic your wish. Sonos has many happy customers :-) By the standards of this website, swarms are not expensive, but I don't know your budget. But let's go back to those Spires. Floor to ceiling arrays, ESL, ribbon, etc. (or close to floor to ceiling) are more immune to floor and ceiling bounce. Why not look into those again. You do fix the response with DSP. Don't look at DSP as complicated, look at it as an extension to your hobby. Something to have fun with.
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My Vintage Speakers have L-Pads, one for mid horn, one for horn tweet. Many in those days included them, for the purpose of adjusting to the room they ended up in: less attenuation for dull rooms and more attenuation for live rooms. And, your personal taste (or the wifey’s). Are you finding current makers that provide for adjustments while listening in the space? You are thinking modern software correction, and of course you can get a high quality multi-band parametric equalizer.
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I am with you, I want to listen in a lovely room, yours sounds to be so. 1. Toe-In will definitely make a difference, especially in your case, very similar to mine. 2. Tilting the speakers back will help in two ways, a, most important, it alters the angles of reflections primary and subsequent relative to the floor, ceiling, side walls. b. aim the tweeters so they project their narrower sound waves at seated ear height, primary listening position. 3. fabric, draperies, in the corners behind the speakers can help, any side windows that will cause early reflections 4. any large table(s), soft fabric tablecloth 5. Avoid glass on artwork on the side walls we use tacky stuff on the bottom back corners to keep wall mounted art both level and vibration free. 6. tons of small cork/rubber/felt feet for small stuff hither and thither You probably don't have a dining room table setup like mine, but have a peek at my setup.
My table, close your eyes, it's not there. as long as L & R get to your ears properly, your brain will make the phantom imaging which happily is excellent here.
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cindyment - thank you, trying to find somewhere to listen to those kii 3s! Also have an appointment with the bank for a second mortgage - Kii3 $$$$$+ Swarm $$$$ + Room Treatments $$$ = $$$$$$$$$$$$$Did someone say "Sonos"? |
DSP can only fix some of your room issues and only in one relatively small area depending on how bad the problem is. Not very familiar with the Dutch and Dutch, but the Kii 3, I have heard and it lives up to the billing. If I had no ability to control my environment, it would definitely be on my listen list. They are a lot more than just DSP/Active. +1 on Base swarm and any treatments you can fit in. |
mike_in_nc - don't you need some kind of engineering degree to run DSP? It sounds very complicated. laoman - Aqueo Audio Stillas - beutiful lookking speakers, thanks. Problem is, tough to find places that demo these and Kii3's.
stibi - gotolondon2 - I have heard a passive set of Dynaudios but not actives, thanks. Thanks to all the others for their great suggestion!
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For a living room, where supposedly you want to have occasionally just a background music, I would go for active speakers. Indeed, this is what I have done for my living room - active Dynaudio. It is much more practical, saves space and you can tune the sound better for low level listening. If you get more pricy option it may even be suitable for critical listening when in the mood to do so. |
The smaller version of the Steinway-Lyngdorf would fit your bill, but not sure about your budget. Can put them right on the walls and use their dsp. They truly sound amazing. I cannot for the life of me remember what they are called. Dynaudio makes very good actives.
Good luck with whatever route you go - just remember to have fun with it mate! Cheers |
Hello high-amp! Are you into fabric art? A beautiful tapestry or "oriental" rug will tame a wall and provide beauty at the sme time. Attach the top of the fabric to length of 1x1 a few inches less than the width of the fabric and fasten the wood to the wall any way you like. Just keep the fabric 1/2 inch or so off the wall. You can put a large, soft, stuffed animal in the upper corners of the room, too. They work wonders! Enjoy the music! |
I’ve been using DSP with passive speakers for nearly 2 decades now. There is no reason you can’t, too. Look into DSP preamps by Anthem, miniDSP, Classé, Lyngdorf, DSPeaker, Trinnov, NAD, and others. DSP can do a lot by itself, and the better the acoustics are to start, the better the result will be. Maybe you can mix in a few panels with your artwork. (I prefer looking at art myself, but I don’t like my ears bleeding, either.) |
As @djones51 said, Dutch & Dutch or Kii. I've had them both in my house. The D&D are much better looking in my opinion and could live with either. For under $15k you have a whole system. Ethernet into the speaker and, with the new firmware, Roon directly. There's no bluetooth/Airplay, which sucks. Those are great for when someone says can I play a song or you just want to play something else that isn't available on Roon. On the other hand, the Anthem software that @erik_squires mentioned is fantastic. The integrated with a pair of Harbeth 30's would work well. Devore is coming out with a micr/O which is a square that fits in a cubby or on a bookshelf. I think it's around $4k. See it over his shoulder here:
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