Power output of tube amps compared to solid states


I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how tube amp power output relates to solid state power output. I've been looking at the classifieds for tube amps and I see lots of tube amps with 50w or 60w output, but nothing close to the 250w output typical of solid state amps.

So I have no idea what type of tube amp is required for my set up, right now I'm using totem forests with a required power rating of 150w-200w at 8ohms. The bass is so powerful on these that I have the sub crossover set to 40hz.

My question is, are tube amps so efficient that 50w from a tube sounds like 150w from a solid state? Or will 50w output from a tube severely limit how loud I can play my speakers? If so, are tubes usually meant to be driving super-high efficiency speakers?

I had previously tried a tube pre-amp with a solid state power amp (both musical fidelity) and didn't like the results because the imaging suffered greatly, even though the music sounded nicer from a distance. Now I want to try a solid state pre-amp (bryston) with a tube power amp (no idea which brand to look at), but I don't know how much power output I need or if it will even be possible with my speakers. Does anyone know what I would require?
acrossley
Unsound, amplifier/speaker synergy can definitely be used to advantage. This is how it's done with a high output impedance amp: The speaker designer uses impedance peaks to get the amp to deliver more power where he wants it. We almost always see impedance peaks in the bass region, so by playing with the enclosures's tuning frequency the designer can use those impedance peaks to extend the bass deeper than it otherwise would have gone. However if the amp's output impedance is too high, the bass will boom no matter what the tuning - so there is an "optimum" for a given speaker.

The reason this type of amp doesn't give good results with all speakers involves more than just the bass region. The speaker's impedance curve usually has peaks and valleys above the bass region, and a high output impedance (or current-source approximating) amp will tend to deliver more power into the peaks and less power into the valleys. A low output impedance (voltage source approximating) amp does the opposite. If a speaker has a smooth impedance curve above the bass region it can work well with both types, provided the bass tuning is adjusted accordingly. With Ralph's S-30, most of my speakers will exhibit roughly one-third to one-half octave greater bass extension than with a solid state amp, but I have to change the tuning frequency. That extra bass is pretty much a "free lunch". In practice I would say Ralph's amps are closer to a "constant-power source" rather than a "constant-current source", but that's still different enough from "constant voltage" to present unique challenges and opportunites for the speaker designer.

Now a designer can also take advantage of the "free lunch" to be had from a solid state amp, by dropping the impedance in the region where he needs more output. In that case, I'd parallel a second woofer in the bass region to drop the nominal impedance to 4 ohms, increasing the amp's output in that region. That calls for a second woofer and a larger enclosure, so it's maybe not as much of a "free lunch" as the first case.

Duke
Duke, Ralph, Unsound, thank you for the dialogue - very interesting indeed.
Duke, thanks, that all appears to make sense to me. I do have further questions, but I believe they are not germane to this thread.
Unsound; I think you are referring to the GE study in the 60's. I found the paper to be very imformative AND unbias, as you seem not to be. I have been a SS person my entire 53+ yrs. I will say after hearing a properly set up tube system I desided to sell my SS and give it a try. There are no absolutes only trade offs. BUT there is no denying tubes. that would be like denying jitter in cd's just because they are only 1's and 0's. Oh they did!
Koegs, actually I was referring to more recent post by Atmasphere, where he offered this link:
http://paulspeltz.com/tomcik/index.html
I don't believe there is any bias in this report.
It is interesting that in the link Atmasphere offers, the writer suggests using feedback to achieve critical damping factor, when Atmasphere has gone on record regarding his objection to the use of negative feedback.