Progressive Rock

'The Billboard Guide to Progressive Music' authored by Bradley Smith. Billboard books, an imprint of Watson-Guptill publications, New York. 1997.

Believe it or not, I paid 25 cents for it, in one of those bargain bins at a local drug store, London Drugs.

Anyways, for the true progressive fan, it is indispensable. There is so much info on bands, albums, studios, etc. It has in depth overviews, key recordings, 100 classic recordings, different prog. music styles, top space recordings, best sounding recordings, etc. It will even tell you how to obtain the music. All is in easy alphabetical order.

While I am not necessarily the biggest prog. fan, I am a huge Floyd fan. This book opens up and exposes you to so many other bands, you really had (me anyways) no idea how big and popular a genre it is.

Here is a sample from the 100 classic recordings: (in no particular order)
Pink Floyd, Animals
Emerald Web, Traces of Time
Jethro Tull, Thick as a Brick
King Crimson, Lizard
Throbbing Gristle, D.O.A.

The best recorded: (in no particular order)
Yes, Fragile
Genesis, Wind and Wuthering
Massacre, Killing Time
Jethro Tull, Thick as a Brick

Just thought some might find this interesting.

What defines progressive aprt from classic. I listen to 99% rock from eagles, Aerosmith, Seeger, Fleetwood Mac, Who, and such more modern groups like, Everclear, Train, Cold Play (their CDs area terrible Mix), Nicleback (don't have any CDs as they sound very compressed). My system is built around Vandersteen 2CE sigs. When i bought speakers it was between those and some Maggie 1.6s. While the Maggies seemed to be very tonally accurate, they did not have the punch that the Vandys had. I thought that the Vandys would sound better on the type of music that I listen to so I chose them.

I use Porcupine Tree's Voyage 34 (the reissue sucks BTW) as a demo at CES and other audio shows that we do (like the recent RMAF). I also demo with ELP's first LP (pink Island edition...), Boards of Canada, Infinity Project (Mystical Experiences) and a lot more- all on LP.

The idea that a system should be built around that is a different matter- in fact the system cannot be built around *any* type of music- rather it must be awesome with *all* types of music! On this I am emphatic; if a system is good with one type of music and not another then something about it sucks and needs fixing.

Kartracer,
I just saw The Musical Box at the Tower Theater in Philadelphia on October the 20th. Aside from enjoying them, I use them as my reference in upgrading and tuning my system. You may also be interested in this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6064022.stm
Sorry that the link didn't paste as intended but is worth the look. Matt.....

If you like Porcupine Tree and Pink Floyd check out a new British band called Pure Reason Revolution. Their new disc "The Dark Third" is my personal album of the year and has phenomenal sonics as well.

Ken Golden
The Laser's Edge

So he was the guy behind Blackfield too? I have only heard Blackfield and Porcupine Tree by listening to some internet streaming prog rock stations

The "Blackfield" cd is a must have - it has excellent sonics, and the music is all excellent.

Bumping up this prog rock thread, especially in light of "The Musical Box" playing in Baltimore next week.

So he was the guy behind Blackfield too? I have only heard Blackfield and Porcupine Tree by listening to some internet streaming prog rock stations

Porcupine tree....that's all I have to say. this band, to describe them in words as my roommate said the other day: "they got everything I love about music into a single band"
for those not familiar with the band (especially those of you who just heard in absentia and deadwing) go check the rest of Wilson's catalog. STeve is very prolific, he's got tons of projects out there and all of them are amazing. some examples:
Blackfield
IEM
Bass communion "ghosts on magnetic tapes"
No-man "returning Jesus" and "together we're strangers".

Yes9 says "The reason I asks is that I attended the Home Entertainment show last month in NYC. And not one of the rooms I visited were playing rock of any kind - and they did not seem receptive to taking request - especially at the volume I would need to hear before plunking down oh say $12,000 for a pair of speakers. "

You should have visited my room (Sonic Spirits - rm 1018)! We were more than happy playing CDs brought by visitors or playing requests if we had something someone wanted to hear. Off the top of my head, we played the following pretty frequently during the show:

Prodigy - "Firestarter"
Billy Idol - "Rebel Yell"
Steppenwolf - "Magic Carpet Ride"
The Clash - "London Calling"
Van Halen - "You Really Got Me"
The Who - "Pinball Wizard"
Jeff Beck - "Goodbye Porkpie Hat"
Stevie Ray Vaughn - "Tin Pan Alley" and "Pride and Joy"
Eric Johnson - "Cliffs of Dover"

Rock CDs brought by visitors included stuff by U2, Traffic, the Doors, Rush, Yes, CCR, Hendrix...

And we didn't have any issues with turning up the volume at a vistor's request... :-)

In the 70's i listented to a lot of prog (still do to a lesser extent now) and the best system i assembled for that was vinyl based with a pair of old Klipsch Cornwalls. The dynamic responce of the horns was great for rock music. I have to admit i had them set up terribly for overall accuracy (stuffed perfectly into the corners to get all the bass i could) but i can still remember a couple of tunes on the Genesis live album (afterglow being one of them) where i could feel bass more than hear it. When you consider that colisium pa's provided the sonic reference point accuracy wasn't really all that big of an issue anyway.

My Dunlavys rock (my vandersteens didn;t) but they don't have quite the dynamics of the horns nor the bass thump of a 15. There is a distinct difference between a speaker hitting a low note with accuracy and moving a lot of air with that note. It's moving the air that provides the impact, thus the multi folded 18 in subs in live rock shows. My Dunlavys have a 10 in driver that will get into the 30 hz range pretty solidly but they don't hit you in the chest doing it. I think that is where some of the accurate speakers work well for more controlled music like jazz where they may seem to fall apart for rock (or big orchestral works). Trying to get the viseral impact from a speaker not designed to provide it usually results in everything being played too loud and the overall result suffering.

Agithos, I had heard about the Klipsch RF-7s and auditioned them LOUD. The horn tweeters sounded more live than my Energys, but not enough to warrant the additional expense. Which again, brings me back to my point of "diminishing returns". However, they did sound more refined than I had expected. In fact I read where alot of Klipsch fans where disappointed and complaining that this speaker was a "sell out", sounded to high end, etc..

Speaking of horns, someone once told me they auditioned a heap of speakers using The Black Album by Metallica. The best speakers were the Klipsch RF-7 and apparently they were better than a lot more expensive audiophile speakers. But of course these speakers would be lacking a whole lot of refinement for other genres of music.

In most of the CES rooms you're allowed to test equipment with your own CDs wether it's prog or jazz or whatever.
Don't forget your couple of CDs next time or vinyls where applicable...

nrenter nails it , almost. horns do rock thousands of live shows and can rock in the home too. i'm not talking about those delicate single driver things in the endangered wood cabinets.....i'm talking jbl,altec,klipsch......

Lazarus28, You are correct in saying that accuracy is not subjective - but it does depend on the definition. I believe it is measurable and real. But who on Audiogon is thinks their system isn't "accurate"? Whether they are right or wrong is another discussion.

Let's see if I can keep this on-topic...

I like rock. All kinds of it. And there some hardware that just doesn't do it for me when it comes to rock. When it comes to speakers, I don't think horns can rock. I don't think planars can rock. I don't think electrostats can rock. I don't think single-driver speakers can rock. However, you'll have people swear up-and-down that these are some of the most "accurate" speaker designs in production.

Who is right? Depends on how you define "accurate". Ruler-flat requency response? Phase shift? Time aligngment? Dynamic response? All of the above? It depends.

Gentle Giant - 35th Anniversary Edition: Has anyone else checked out these remasters? I picked up Freehand this week. WOW!

Boy I hope this answer doesn't make me sound like a shill...

I'm not sure that you would want to assemble a system that sounded best with one type of music, unless of course that is the ONLY type of music you listen to. Eons ago I used to own Apogee Calipers. I never liked the way they sounded with rock but if I played a string quartet they were mesmerizing. I think you are better off trying to put together a well balanced system that sounds uniform with all genres of music.

Having said that...I heartly endorse Cerious Technologies speakers. The designer Bob Grost is a prog rock freak. When Bob was running Unity Audio he used to voice his speakers using Kraan and Gordon Giltrap albums. Peter Gabriel and Tool are always heavy in his rotation. He's an utter bass freak as well and able to extract articulate and deep low frequencies out of small footprint enclosures. I've been using his designs in our label's reference system for many years dating back to his days with Unity Audio. I moved up the UA food chain over the years culminating in a custom set of their top of the line PARMs. Now that he's started up Cerious Technologies I've jumped over to the Cerious Ceramic References and frankly they are the best speakers I've ever heard - and I've heard a lot. They do prog rock (and jazz and classical and...) quite nicely thank you.

So...if you are looking for something that could be construed as a "prog rock speaker" you should check out his forward thinking designs. Shortly you'll start seeing a buzz generated about his liquid ceramic cables as well. I tend to get a bit evangelical about his work so pardon the gushing.

Ken Golden
The Laser's Edge

I don't know what type of music I built my system around, but I still enjoy listing to progressive rock from the 70's whenever the mood strikes, because that's all I was into back then. Prog rock sounds pretty damn good comming out of my Basis TT, CJ EV-1 phono pre, Threshold pre,and power amp powering my ML Aerius i 's. My imagination tells me, if you're going to build around prog rock, go with CJ tubed pre with high powered CJ SS amp powering Vandersteen or Legacy, or the speakers Rgs92 suggested. Large woffers are the ticket. BTW has anyone listen to any Renaissance lately - Annie Haslam can sing her ass off.

Often I read that rock (progressive or otherwise; is there regressive rock?) needs speakers with lots of bass. I think what is much more important is smooth, non-etched, non-tizzy highs & non-pushy or too-forward mids. There is enough of this in the music & you need to complement these features rather than highlight them. You also need to deal with close-miked vocals, which can sound terrible & acidic with over-detailed tweeters. Wilsons sound strident on rock, as the tweeters transmit all distortion loud & clear. I think Aerials, nice & polite, are very good on rock (I used to have 10ts). I also thought the Appogee Stages had a nice live sound while still smooth & involving.

I have been buying cd's from Ken Goldens www.lasercd.com for over 5 years now (probably close to 250cd's). One of the best sites on the net for Prog, no im not associated in any way.

Yo Duane!!

Thanks for the endorsement. We've got a monster prog rock disc coming out in a few weeks you should check out. The band is called "Wobbler". They are the opening band at NEARfest this year.

Bob Katz did the mastering and it is drool worthy. It is one of the most dynamic rock recordings I've ever heard - this disc EXPLODES. Mellotrons, flutes, Hammond organ, Rickenbacker bass, Moogs, ARPs, grand piano, electric and acoustic guitar and percussion up the ying-yang. It's totally over the top prog and an extremely transparent recording to boot.

I'm always happy to talk prog...always happy to talk audio...extremely happy to talk about both at the same time.

Regards,
Ken Golden
The Laser's Edge
www.lasercd.com

HOW COOOL!!!
KEN GOLDEN IS THE #$&***!!! ... this guy is at all the big prog festivals and Lasers Edge (his label) puts out some of the finest brain fry endorphin rock ever released!! The Addition by Subtraction, Neblenest and Volare discs alone put him in the history books. It's great to see him posting!!!

I built my system around Vandersteen 2CE sigs. Tube Audio design 150 Preamp, McCormack DNA-1 power, Just bought an Eatern Electric CDP. I like the set up because all these components are nuetral and well-balanced. A lot of energy with the McCormack Amp. Great soundstage by all these units.

Brad:

While I think that Camel and Caravan have lapsed a bit past their prime I did get to see them play at NEARfest a few years ago and they still played with a lot of intensity for a bunch of old farts! My favorite Caravan album remains In The Land Of Gray & Pink, while Camel's Mirage is one of my all time greats.

Ken Golden

thanks Ken, I am familiar with the Progressive Ears site, and visit it and others now and then, but your post caused me to go out and get an update. I'm familiar with many of the bands mentioned there and in this thread. My point was to note I don't see mention of Camel, or Caravan much if at all in the A'gon threads. There's lots of discussion of Genesis, Gentle Giant, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, and the other 70's bands and also Porcupine tree, Spock's Beard, etc (ie the contemporary) acts. The bands I mention here are just a few of the the ones I favor most, and Camel, Caravan are among the top of my favorites list. I saw Camel on their "Nod and a Wink" tour and it was a great show. I think Nod and a Wink, and Rajaz (both released in the last 5 years) are as good as anything done by any other band in that time.

progressive rock often uses the studio as an instrument, so so the traditional audiophile qualities get thrown out the window, which is fine.........jane,barclay james harvest, rare bird,manfred mann's earthband... yeowza

Brad:

Actually you are missing quite a bit. If you want a good jumping off point to investigate current activities in progressive rock check out www.progressiveears.com.

Regards,
Ken Golden
The Laser's Edge
www.lasercd.com

All these prog freaks on this site, and I've hardly seen anyone mention Camel, or Carvan (this thread or elswhere). You 70's guys . . . What am I missing?

Legacy focus 20/20 is probably about as good of rock speaker as you will find

Matt...I found the LP on Ebay,,not terribly expensive, not cheap either.

The one thing is that with speakers, its a pain in the rump to buy and then sell if you dont like,,,at least I ALWAYS buy used, for $$ loss-free turnaround. I find myself more concerned with timbral accuracy, tone, fatigue free for hours of listening, and overall balance...To me, soundstaging and imaging are not that important.. When in a live arena/theatre, that almost doesnt exist, unless your in the first 5 rows of a chamber music performance.

Is it really that important that the guitar be on left/basson right, with the singer 3/4 to the right? as long as the sound makes sense, who cares...

I was going to suggest JBL L-96's or Altec Valencias...teh valencias give you the clarity of horns, plus the 15" woofer...I also dont think that there is a better rock speaker than the JBL L-96...refinement galore (one of the best mids ever made) plus it can take power galore.

Jsugo, that's my dilema. The Energy Audisey 5+2 speakers I have can literaly take a beating. And they pound out all the base required for the job. Energy also stocks parts going way back, so even if you do break something, you can order a replacement at a reasonable cost. They also can be placed relatively close to the wall - 18". BUT they are not the word in resolution nor do they image that well compared to the MLs. But I totally agree that the volume you listen at is going to limit speaker options at least in my price range. There is always the lottery!
BTW where did you get the UK plum label recording? Thanks, Matt...

No one mentioned Planet X?...excellent recording for trying out at stores..(it was enginnered/produced by drummer Simpn Phillips)...

I learned, now that I have vintage speakers at home, that its the volume you listen to that make or break the choices...

I play quite loud (to me) and these EV12trxb paper coned coaxes werent meant for pounding rock...but wallah!, they do...When I got my UK plum label LP of Yes' Fragile, my jaw almost dropped..bloody awesome! but if I cranked them up higher, I may tear the cones off the surrounds!..:-),,and I am operating with vintage Mcintosh MC40's or Berning EA-230 tube triode.

the bass is produced by the 12" driver...I am not sure if 8" or less as a midbass/bass driver will give you that visceral feeling, unless your room is small.

and they EV's play classical and Jazz great..I am yet to hear a better rendered piano.

Yes9 the price point for good quality is always going to be subjective. For what are you willing to settle? I have about about $2300 in my system which I do not consider to be state-of-the-art. BUT it is nearly as good as ALbert Porters system!

Those ATCs are really fantastic speakers. I was in the market for a pair for several months, but could not find any so I grudgingly went another direction. Based on my ML expereince I would prefer the ATCs, but it's always up to the buyer. I'm not sure if Peter Gabriel and David Gilmour went out and bought a pair of them though. They really don't have much control over what the studio happens to buy.

Well, since I started this thread I figured I would weigh in. Besides for all the new prog rock suggestions, which I thank you for, I have concluded the following: While I agree that a great system should be able to reproduce any type of music, my question still remains; at what price point? Assuming that most of us have some limit as to what we can spend on this hobby/obsession, some tradeoffs have to be made. For example to reproduce the music I like realistically (using live music as the benchmark as opposed to audiophile values or what just gives me the most enjoyment), requires certain basics. One is large, floorstanding speakers, a larger than "average" amp and yes, even a subwoofer - base pedal afficiados know what I mean - all capable of playing @ 100 decibals+. All of this naturally eats into the budget of say more "resolving" equipment just to provide the necessary shear volume and power. Second, there are practical considerations. I loved the sound/imaging/disappearing act of the Martin Logans I listened to. But you can't ride them at the levels I listen (per 2 dealers) or they are going to simply break eventually. Not to mention the size room needed to set them up properly. In conclusion, I'm going to stick with my current system (12K and running) and just modify and tweak just to keep things interesting. That's not to say I won't listen to the ATCs that Lazarus recommended! If they are good enough for Gabriel and Gilmore - enough said! Thank you all again. Matt......

I am probably quite a bit younger than some here so I did not grow up with 70's prog.
But I am heavily into modern Prog Rock and you would be suprised that almost all prog these days has very high production values, much more so than average music recorded today.

If you like stuff like Yes, ELP, Kansas e.t.c check out

Spocks Beard
Arena (ex Marillion members, brilliant)
Porcupine Tree
Ayreon
Enchant

and prog rock with a bit more harder edge
Dream Theater
Shadow Gallery
Symphony X
Pain Of Salvation
Threshold

Iseekheils --

I'm not sure if you own a turntable, but you simply haven't HEARD "Octopus" til you've heard a decent vinyl pressing of this great recording.

In my system, the bass is at least a full octave deeper, and all other parameters (dynamics, high-end clarity, soundstage, etc.) is noticably better...

I also listen primarily to "prog rock" and am fortunate enough to have a good friend who constantly seeks out "new" GREAT prog rock bands -- those of you who can find 'em, and are fans of Genesis, YES, ELP. etc. will probably really like "Ad Infinitum", Simon Says "Paradise Square", and a few others that are recent, clean, dynamic digital recordings.

Being a HUGE Gentle Giant fan, I have often used the Octopus CD, along with Masque by Brand X, and a few others to audition audio equipment. I have always tried to purchase gear that was the most accurate, revealing, transparent, etc. I think if you have some good recordings of piano, acoustic guitar, drums, cymbals, violin, brass, concentrate on equipment that makes all of this sound natural. Then poorly recorded music or electric instruments will be as good as they can be. You don't have to design a system around Prog or Classical, as mentioned, stress accuracy and you'll be fine.
Sonny

You can't talk about Prog these days without mentioning Porcupine Tree. Most of their stuff is on LP too.

My system, while not designed to play rock at all, is fine with it (and I tend to be brutal about it...) and I am one of those at the shows that plays stuff like that all the time- King Crimson, ELP, Camel. Didn't make Stereophile this year though...

Yes9 said :My question is, giving the poor recording quality of the 70's stuff, especially Genesis, my favorite, is there really any point in continuing the upgrade path. Or as I suspect, have the I reached the old proverbial "point of diminishing returns"?

Before I replaced my Sonic Frontiers preamp, I would have agreed pretty much on this idea of diminishing returns. But, after buying and using the Ayre K-1x preamp(using balanced in/out), I believe there is much to be gained via upgrade, sorry to say!
As far as early Genesis, the texture & layering of Tony Bank's keyboards and Hackett's guitar are so sweet, I have never heard it like this, and I bought these albums new 30+ years ago in 1972-1974, and have never stopped listening to them. I marvel at what I have missed on these over the years. (The remastered CDs are what I listen to now; LPs are well-worn by now).
Try the Mike Oldfield remasters...VERY nicely done, long cuts,worth the $10 they can be found at!

I agree with driver, it really does come down to personal taste. My system is light in the bass department but I accept that tradeoff for the huge soundstage and incredible mids I get from my Dunlavy/PrimaLuna combo. The Krell I used to use had more bass but I find myself listening to more music now than I used to because the krell tended to make average cd's(many prog) sound bright. I find myself putting on an album and listening to the whole thing now. I guess that must mean I enjoy what I have.

nrchy - we are in 100% complete agreement! mark the calendar! stop the presses!

that's exactly why i built my system the way i did.

and nrenter - accuracy is not subjective. it's measurable and real. one may prefer a certain style of distortion, but they're wrong if they call it accurate.

Another Prog head here, interesting thread !!!

I would say the emphasis w/rock would be a spkr. that produces plenty of bass, so a large floorstander would fit the bill. Some folks might opt for standmounts w/sub but I've never liked the integration. Depends on personal preferences.

Then in order to deliver the music in excess of 100 dB's w/o distortion (if required), one would need to have an amp capable of doing the job. Not meaning to deviate into an amp thread or any other component, let me just say not all amps (components) are created equal & some will do the intended job better than others. Again, remember it's all about personal tastes.

The source would need to be on the warmer side of neutral to cover up recording flaws & the cables would follow this pattern. Of course this IMO and that's how I like to listen.

I agree with your precept that the system doesn't know what it's playing, so a good sounding system should be able to reproduce all music accurately but different genres of music emphasize different aspects of sound reproduction & not all stereo gear does all of these things the same way.

It basically boils down to individual taste & I believe the more we personalize our systems, the more it tends to be in line with the type of music we prefer.

Nrchy,

This is where the controversy enters the picture.

In theory, no. If a system "accurately" reproduces Pink Floyd, or King Crimson, there not a reason it would not do so for a Mozart piano concerto or a Carl Orf cantata.

It all depends on how you define the word "accurately".

I will preface this by saying that I'm not real bright, but how does one build a system to reproduce one particular style of music? If a system accurately reproduces Pink Floyd, or King Crimson is there any reason it would not do so for a Mozart piano concerto or a Carl Orf cantata?

How are these different?

The majority of my collection is rock and I have built my system accordingly. I have the VR4 GenIII spkrs that Tvad mentioned mated with an Ayre V-1x amp and modded Meridian CDP. I'm currently on a tube preamp search & am now auditioning a Thor.

I was at the CES earlier this year & had a very heavy bass track on a rock song that I carried with me & asked to be played & guess which room it sounded the best in? Yep, with the VR SR's. Interestingly, Albert was using big tube amps (VAC) to power these, so synergy is key.

As important as synergy is, personal taste should be what dictates your choices but if I had $12k to spend on spkrs, I would also audition the Avalon Eidolon, which can be had used at that price and also the Montana KAS, along with the VR SR's.

great thread . . . I'm a prog freak from the 70's and most of my music collection (ie about 40%) is prog, with the balance being Jazz, Folks, Classical, Bluegrass, etc.

I had concluded recently I would set up my main rig for optimal acoustic/jazz/voice listening. My premise is most prog doesn't challenge a system because of the quality of recording that is typical, and previously mentioned. That said, I have found that prog needs deep bass, and must play loud - so that's been my primary prerequisite. In tuning my systems for prog listening I've found that the power amp and speakers are more important than the front end. My old Infinity Monitor IIa speakers that I drove with a Phase Linear 400 in the 70's were wonderful for Prog, and still are. I still have the Monitors, but am driving them with a Bedini 100.100. They are flat from 22Hz to 26kHz. My Totem Sttafs image wonderfully and I can listen to them all day for most music, but weren't as satisfying for Prog because of the absence of deep bass, until I added a Rel Storm III. I'm still afraid to play them really loud so I don't consider them optimal. I'm experimenting with other speaker/amp combinations to see if I can improve on the Monitor/Bedini system.