IME when RRL Deep Cleaner sheets instead of beading up it's usually a sign that:
- I applied too much solution or,
- the record is incredibly, deep-down filthy or,
- the record is groove-damaged.
The less "wet" the RRL solutions act on a record, the cleaner and less damaged it's likely to be. |
That makes sense Dave since as I indicated above, I was noticing more beading on brand new never played LPs. Really glad I asked the question and thanks to Brian Weitzel for the clarification. In case you happen to read this Brian, what kind of brush do you use or recommend, and should RRL Super Wash be applied directly to the record (the way I do it) or to the brush as I've read some others do? |
In previous conversations, Brian told me he prefers to spread RRL fluids with CF brushes, the same kind you dry brush with, using one for DC and one for VW.
I've tried those, the Last brushes, painting pads from Walmart and DD brushes. DD brushes work best and CF brushes are a close second. The CF brushes will occasionally shed a fiber. If your RCM doesn't pull the fiber out of a groove, your stylus will. Still, if I didn't have DD brushes I'd use CF. Those zillions of tiny fibers do a great job of getting the RRL fluids down into the grooves. |
Has anyone here tried Vinyl Zyme Gold for cleaning there records??? Claims to remove the bacteria and other nasties that RRL fluid does not.
R. |
I use it on records with obvious mold growth or that don't clean up completely with a couple of RRL passes.
It removes some (never all) mold growth deposits. Not perfect but better than not using it. |
"The less 'wet' the RRL solutions act on a record"
It's kind of like if you wash your hair and the shampoo doesn't lather up: you got greasy greasy hair. |
Just sharing my experience, confirmed by both listening tests and constant visual inspection of the stylus.
I guess the theories don't interest me as much as the results, and my records have never been cleaner. I can and do go for many, many sides without needing to do more than brush the odd cat hair off the stylus. I have not opened my bottle of LP #9 in months, and even my preferred DIY stylus cleaner isn't needed more than once every 6-10 sides. This tells me my vinyl cleaning methods are working.
If you prefer a solution that makes more sense from a particular theoretical perspective, go for it. Jyprez likes his DIY stuff, I like RRL. Hmm, we live only ten miles apart. Guess we could do a comparison... |
I have become aware that I should provide an update to an earlier post that I made where I recommended using a couple of household cleaners (i.e. Dawn) as record cleaning agents as a precursor to using Record Research Labs fluids. I have since learned a great deal about record cleaning ingredients and the importance of avoiding ingredients which attack the plasticizers in vinyl, which certain additives (i.e. fragrance additives) will do. As such, I retract my recommendation of those products and apologize to anyone whom I may have misled. |
I clean new records first with Last Power cleaner on both sides, then with Nitty Gritty fluid and vacuum it off with a Record Doctor II. Used records get the Audio Intelligent treatment. Before and after each play I run a couple of revolutions with a Super Exstatic brush. Before the record gets put away I zap it with a Ionoclast. |
David: Recordings should be cleaned before playback. For years I used all the standard stuff;carbon brushes,wet cleanings,vacuum machines,etc. with mixed degrees of sucess.I experimented with most cleaning tweeks in print but none of them resulted in emotional nirvana. Of course that led to a sucession of changes:TTs,wires,pickups-my audio addiction was in fullswing.LPs had become a head problem and no one absolutely no one in print had the answer-at least for me. After the purchase of a Maplenoll air bearing TT in the early 1991, I became interested in air(that is forced air), as well as, inquiry into the nature of contaminates that maybe attracted to Lps. Over a lifetime, I amassed thousands of those black orbs that I now used as "experimental and control groups". My conclusion? Give Steam a try . Yes, you got it right STEAM. For years I have been pre-cleaning LPs with steam. The process is Simple and Safe and Effective. First, clean the record with a Lp cleaner of your choice , lightly scrub and vacuum with a VPI,etc. Next, take a handheld, household-type steamer with distilled H20--devoid of all attachments--build a full head of Clean Steam and let 'er rip gently over the groves followed by a second wet cleaning,scrubbing and vacuuming. Lastly, lightly steam again and vacumm dry.I strongly recommend using Lp cleaning liquids,such as Disc Doctor or Smart, but have found that homebrews can work just as well as the high priced spread. David 'an Thread Weavers ,Beware, do not use any other cleaning unit other than those hand held products easly purchased at BJs,Wal Mart or wherever for they do not create steam so hot as to damage a LP. And NO I can not assure you that every pop an click created at time of manufacture or thru use/abuse will go away. BUT I can say that after removal of all the gunk and molds you can extract more, much more information . The process also removes the "fingerprint" created by the use cleaning liquids. My steaming ideas were initially printed by Art Dudley in "Listner" and later Michael Fremer gave it a favorable recommendation in "Stereophile" - A blurb was also included in the year-end recommendations issue. So give it a try. Charlie |
I clean each side with an Oracle Carbon fiber brush. I clean the stylus each session with a Denon ultrasonic cleaner. I neverlubricate the stylus. When I first purchase an album it gets cleaned with a homemade cleaning solution on a Nitty Gritty machine, I place them in new rice paper sleeves and place the whole package in a poly bag to form a dust seal. |
I have read through this whole thread that appears to have been running for almost four years! What is fascinating to me is that no matter how long this discussion runs, nor how many people get involved there appears to be no ultimate solution to the record cleaning problem. Part of the problem may be that since the lp was introduced in the late 40s there appears to have been a number of formulations for the "vinyl" from which they are produced. It may be that each type needs its own ultimate cleaning formula.
I have been using an old Keith Monks machine for about twenty years to clean my records. It uses a brush to "scrub" the record (Parostatic if I remember correctly) and a vacuum nozzle with an ever advancing nylon thread. Over those years I have tried every commercial record cleaning compound (including Last's products, Genie in a Bottle, etc.) as well as numerous home formulas suggested by other collectors. In addition, like a mad scientist, I have concocted a number of solutions from various alcohols, esters and other stinky compounds. Surprisingly I have had few disasters, but I do have a few casualties from some of my more extreme experiments involving polyvinyl alcohol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, dimethylbenzene, methyl salicylate, etc. Some of these substances are quite capable of washing away the grooves entirely! Naturally I keep a supply of totally uninteresting records for my more extreme experiments.
I have even had discussions with plastics manufacturers who have directed me toward some industrial products. One such product called Ultra Clear I still use occasionally for some of the more difficult cleaning problems I come across. Unfortunately since it is a proprietary product I do not know its contents. Ultra Clear was originally manufactured as a commercial plexi and vinyl cleaning product and it does remove some substances that are not caught by my usual cleaning method.
For the last couple of years I have been using the formulation published by M. St Laurent of the National Archives in Ottawa. This involves minute quantities of the two tergitols in distilled water. Problems that it can't handle are dealt with by using a solution of pure ethanol in distilled water (1:3). And if that still doesn't work I try the Ultra Clear. All of these formulations I ONLY use if there is clearly dirt or finger marks on the vinyl. Otherwise I limit cleaning to a simple distilled water wash, and even in the case of using one of the solutions I follow up with a final wash using distilled water, vacuuming after each solution and the wash.
There is a product I have recently come across that I believe may hold some promise. This is a fluid marketed as Optimax and I believe is based on cleaning with enzymes. It was developed for cleaning optical blanks and lenses, both glass and plastic. The manufacturer claims it can do no damage, will remove all foreign substances and will leave a residue no greater than one molecule thick. I have a sample bottle on order and will see what it does.
One wonders if there is a collector out there who is also an organic chemist with experience in vinyl manufacturing and pressing. It always seems to me that there must be some definitive solution that will lift everything off the record without touching the fundamental makeup of the vinyl itself.
Thanks to all of you for a very fun thread.
Harold Tichenor |
Though I use an ultrasonic machine to clean the stylus now, I previously used the striker on a matchbook cover. I was shown this trick by a real Linnie who used a seriously modded Citation II driving Linn Isobariks. An amazing sound as I recall. Worked pretty damned well and I still use it from time to time. |
What is with the Linn bashing?. I've compared mine to many tables from VPI and I still own the Linn. Not to say that it is perfect but the music came through more realistically for me. Set-up is critical and time consuming but when done right it removes most of the complaints I've read here. |
What Linn bashing ? Are you high ? |
|
Over here records are played only to record onto reel to reel tape. The LP's are played wet with isopropyl alcohol using a 1/2" wide flat brush to distribute the alcohol. The alcohol seems to lubricate the stylus while eliminating all but the most egregious of hurdles in the groove. Be certain to not apply too much alcohol toward the outside edge of the LP as that can be a mighty mess. A custom machined brass record clamp is used as well. This 'ritual' is tedious and is not being recommended but the result is a CD-quiet very high-quality copy of an LP.
Cody |
Clean with Zerodust. Apply Stylast, dust record and let it rip |
Well, I gave in and tried StyLast. While the stuff works really well I will continue to play records wet using a 33/66% soultion of GlassPlus and isopropyl alchohol. While the StyLast did indeed dramatically reduce surface noise it did NOT yield the CD-quiet results of my special home-made magic brew.
|
Alright, ixnay on the GlasPlus. The pigment in the cleaner accumulates in the groove which will prevent the record from playing 'cleanly' dry. Back to the straight isopropyl alcohol. Sigh.
Don't try this at home - I am a professional?
Cody Grayland |
Anybody experience their cleaning fluid getting moldy? I have to clean out my VPI every so often, I don't want to put the mold onto records. I have the gallon jug on the floor beside the VPI. |
Deb,
There have been many reports over the years of VPI's cleaning fluid growing mold. IMO, the best solution is to dispose of it, in an environmentally safe way of course, and use something better.
A perusal of this thread will turn up many, err, solutions. RRL is my preference.
|
Thanks, Doug, I've been seeing good news about the RRL, I've got to place an order with Music Direct today so I'll have them send me the stuff. I've been complaining to my local store about the problem but he says any cleaner does the same thing. It would be very good for me if he's wrong. |
Um, he's wrong. What he probably meant was, "Any cleaner (that we sell) does the same thing." ;-) It's been several months since I last ordered RRL, but at that time Galen Carol had the best price IIRC. http://www.gcaudio.com |
I had an older bottle of leftover Discwasher fluid that went moldy after awhile - fortunately so far there's been no problems like that with the RRL fluid |
I take the dresired record from it's sleeve, put it on the 'table, clap it down with a Black Diamomd Racing carbon fiber record clamp. The best clamp I've used including the new VPI delrin/stainless. It cost $350 though. I set my stylus in the Zerodust not once but twice. Then I appy some Stylast to a Benz brush and carefully apply some stylast to the stylus. Then I break out a lighted magnifing glass and check to make sure my sylus is spotless. I turn on the 'table giving the clamp a little twist to help bring it up to speed. Then I use a Demma carbon fiber to clean the dust and other malfuntions off the record. Then I lower the stylus and enjoy. If it's winter and static is a problem I zap the record and arm with a Zerostst until I hear no more zaps. |
I had a jug of VPI cleaner turn green. Plus Harry recomends adding alcohol. A big no-no. I bought some Disc Doctor solution. It works fine and is claimed to have a indefinate shelf life. I like the VPI 16.5, but I'd steer clear of VPI cleaners. |
Scottht, I would check out LAST record presevative and Stylast as well. I have records I've played over and over: no wear, no clicks, no pops. As far as Stylast is concered the only people who don't like it sell cartidges for a living. You do have to apply judiously making sure none of it travels up the cantilever. Your stylus will last 3000+ hours. In fact your compliance and suspenion will give out first. Your stylus builds up tremendous heat from the friction to the point it actually mealts the groove as it passes by. With stylast that won't happen. So between LAST and Stylast you can play record indefitly.
I apply LAST right after a good cleaning with a 16.5 and they say it's good for 200 plays allthough I know I have records I've played more than that!! Good Luck and good listening |
Amusing...
I took the LP out, I put it in a kitchen alu double foil to deal with statics, put on the platter, use a fiber carbon cleaner to remove any small dust particle, look at the stylus (if not ok clean with a small brush, else sand paper - not often), fire!!!
Stefano |
Turn 'stereo' on and let warm up at least 15minutes
Take our record
take dust cover off NAD533
put record platter and hit the power
dust record with carbon brush as it spins
put weight on record
drop the needle
i wet clean records when i get 'em
dry clean them with carbon brush off platter after they have been sitting for a while
use brush then gel on needle every week
demag with Cardas burn-in record every week
Don't have a cleaning machine and aint gonna get one.
Records woulkd probably benefit from such a machine but the records sounds real good as is and any wear down to my needle is appreciated because it will neccessitate upgrading. ;-) |
|
Do major clean with LAST power and LAST preservative.Hvae found that I rarely amd compelled to do another VPI clean unless it's and LP I know has been played a half dozen times but use an Alsop cleaner almost every play so it get's a wet clean.Have yet to find any dry brush that removes dust just pushes it around.Use my old Discwasher brush as a pre-Alsop if it's been days that I have left an LP on deck with no cover and it's full of dust.Each of these items helps next down line last longer/work better.As Fremmer once pointed out it is not obsessive to use pre-cleaner like Discwasher to save Alsop and ore importanlty Alsop to protect lips of felyon your VPI or NG machine.If you ust take a realy gunky LP and don't try to take smoke,oils,etc off LP before you machine clean it the faster the tube felt pads will become contminted and spread bad stuff on successive LP's in future.
Chazzbo |
Just got a prescription for sterile water from a dentist buddy. What a load of crap, a presciption for water. Anyway, I use it as I final rinse. My records shine like they were Amoraled. They have never been this clean. I used to stop at Record Research rinse stage. Man was I missing a bunch of sound. Get some pure water to rinse or your music will always be veiled. I can't say homw much better it is that the distilled water you'ld buy at the variey store, but it works for me. |
If you boiled distilled water would it not be sterile? |
BTW anybody checked out $400 system Fremmer touted for lab grade water?I guess it's like 20 amp lines good for home pwners and not such a hot sounding "solution" (sorry about that) for apartment dwellers.
Chazzbo |
Does anyone have the web address for the Record Research fluid?
Thanks,
Dave |
Never mind. I found the Record Research cleaning fluid at the Music Direct web site... |
That's where I usually buy my RRL, Rolloff. There or from Galen Carol.
Best,
Jack |
Either place is fine, but if you want to establish a working relationship with a really good guy, shop Galen Carol. This is not to say that the folks at MD aren't good guys, just that Galen is one of the best. |
I second the comment about Galen Carol, he sold me my 16.5, he is very knowledgeable and is always available to answer questions and help in any way he can. I true gem in the audiophile world.
Travis
Austin, Texas |
I don't take the time to clean the records every time I play them. A visual check and listen asap to it. Than I take a joint and enjoy the pleasure of fine music and sound. Vinyl is still fun...and top notch sound |
clean with disc doctor fluid and brushes and my own manual method, clean lps go into mfsl sleeve's, when they come out for playing zerodust, audioquest brush, and ah sit back and rock and roll, |
Every once in a while I'll wipe the dust off my records and needle.
That's it. |
Hellu, I spread each recod I want play with wod glue mix with water and let dry in aer before peal off and take all dirt and particelles with it. Now you recod are play FINE ;-) It take time but for listen to recod you need only TEN minute tos do gluw and finish before lisen. I have very expense tt and get benefit from use this evertime. |
I started getting serious in listening to vinyl 2 years ago when I bought a used LP12 and set it up myself.
Almost every evening I would turn-on my Phono preamp and let it warm-up for 2 hours. While waiting I'd get myself a glass of red wine. Take a sip here and there, dimmed the lights in the listening room. Then I would pick & clean a jazz record (like Spyro Gyra's "Catching the Sun" or Earl Klugh's "Marvin & Tige" album) manually. Sit down dead center of my ML ascents about 8 feet away (near field). Then just relax and enjoy the PRAT of the music.
I listen at least 2 hours a day after a long hard day from work after dinner. You have to do this getting up from your chair and back every 20 minutes. |
First I wash my hands and get the water temperture just luke warm then I use dilluted non-phosphate bio degradible green friendly liquid castle soap. I really like the Lilac diluted to about 63 parts water to 1 of soap. I use the pads of my fingers and wash with a circular groove flowing motion under a slow stream of water going across the record. I do the same for side two before laying the record down on a fresh soft egyptian cotton terry cloth towel on the velour side fold the towel over and pat dry softly.
At my turntable I have the same type of towel rolled for a quick dust if needed before play.
Listening to U2 Blood Red Sky Island Mini LP Vinyl
Groovey Records |
I don't know about you guys but I use a drop of dish washer liquid and a wet paper towel. Then I rinse with warm water and stand the record on its side to air dry. Dirty record come out super clean. It still have some snaps now and then. So then I say Hare Krisna Hally Rama and give the mother a spin and hope for the best |
Chazzbo - Mikey Fremer is talking about a reverse osomosis system NOT laboratory (a.k.a. pharmaceutical) grade water. To purify the water some people will put the same water repeatedly through the RO process 5 or 6 times to remove impurities. Very weird but OK (I guess) if you have the time.
EVERYONE - you simply MUST try STEAM cleaning! No matter what system you use - even if it is dish soap, dishwasher soap, or a "let dry & peel" technique. Steaming, with the best water you can get, is for EVERYONE and does a wonderful "finish" job as well. The Egyptian cotton terri cloth for drying is a really nice added touch too! However a common wooden dish rack will work nicely as well. For those that worship at the altar of self-appointed Pooh-bah and vinyl techno-Shaman Mikey Fremer, steaming is one of the things he wants the purist water for (as well as mixing). But REMEMBER, Mikey did NOT discover steam cleaning LPs - Charlie Rehm DID!
AS FOR EVERY TIME I PLAY A RECORD - jury is still out on the minimalist approach but carbon LP brush and a stylus brush swipe seem necessary. HOWEVER, reducing static (which is level dependent upon Relative Humidity) is a biggie but I still need to perform empirical testing with measurable data to be certain what is easiest yet very effective. |
Jimi,
What would you say is a good humidity for the home in general
I have lots of books and wooden guitars plus those records of mine.
The house is all wood with forced water radient heat under wood planks combined with forced water base boards.
I'm keeping the upstairs loft @ about 45 -50% humidity and about 65 deg where the guitars are kept The loft looks out on a cathedral pine clapboard ceiling peaking at 40 ' .
All together It's a very big room with open space about 1400 sft, I have another humidifier in the L shaped living listening area downstairs. In the winter it often goes below zero outside and as far down as 40 below sucking all the moisture out of the air.
I know humidity affects static as well as mold whadayathink would be good
Thanks
Groovey
ps I saw Jimi a few times' First time on MacDougal St in NYC at the Cafe Wha? Jimi James and the Flames in the daytime drinking dayglo mountain dew Not necessarily stoned just beautiful.
Listening to Stevie Wonder-Fullfillingness' First Finale-Mowtown 2-47075
Spanish Vinyl |
Where you are at - 45-55% RH in the entire home is fine for guitars, books, wood, etc. 30% is very low and HUGE static problems arise as well as drying out pretty much everything. Above 70% is just too moist and you may start having mold & moisture problems but probably need 75%+ for that.
So given the largess of you environment it sounds like you are doing GREAT to keep it at 45% RH during the winter (overall). HOWEVER...55-65% in the small area around your turntable area is ideal. I find below 55% RH things start to sound worse due to static build-up and a bit of a drying of other things in the vinyl playback chain.
BEAR IN MIND THOUGH that this is done to mitigate static so at 50-55% RH you can do fine WITHOUT local humidification BUT you need to mitigate static charge build-up. I am trying to investigate this as we head into the winter months. This is why I started a thread inquiring about the NEW Dust Bug performance.
Bear in mind that there are several factors involved - turntable drive type, platter material, platter finish, mat material and vinyl cleaning methods and products used. So this is why everyone has varying degrees of the impact of this problem. Unfortunately my TT materials are pretty bad from a triboelectric perspective so I need to figure out what mitigation options are optimal. Right now I am using local humidity and ionic treatment to keep the problem in check. Humidity has a host of ancillary benefits so it's not a bad way to do it but it's always best to identify all the "static generators" in any system set-up. |
