In response to Dweller's comment about inheriting their parents estates, by the time those fortunate enough do actually inherit anything from anyone, they will be old and deaf. I am semi-retired myself and only working part time now. I would love to replace my old but trusty Classic 120's (with GNSC mods) with a REF75 SE but the income is far less from what it used to be so this will have to wait a while. I may be old and deaf by the time i can gather the funds for this purchase. |
Fair point, Tubegroover. I went overboard I realize that now. My apologies. |
Well, I'm old, but thank God I can still hear.
To the naysayers ... even those who are just having a little fun poking at us ARC guys ... no offense taken by me, None. In fact, I kind of enjoy poking your ribs in return. :>)
With that said, in one of my last posts, I said that the amp seemed to reach a plateau of sorts. Kind of got a little dark sounding. I've had this experience with the last few pieces of ARC I've bought. During break-in, even a small step backward may occur. Its just the parts breaking in.
That brings me to last night's listening session.
At 40 hours, there was a significant breakthrough. I put on one of my Paul Desmond albums. Its on the Artist House label: AH-9402. Its a live performance recorded in 1975 at Bourbon Street, Mixed in 1978 by Don Thompson in Toronto, Canada. Its a "must have" for any Desmond fan - superb performance and audiophile quality sound.
About a third of the way through the first side, things opened up in a dramatic way. It was like I was transported into the club. If you've heard "Jazz at the Pawnshop you'll get the drift of what I'm talking about. The difference is ... instead of Swedish musicians trying to emulate Desmond, you have the real thing right there in front of you. There's some amazing guitar work by Ed Bickert that really shows off the speed of the amp with the SE upgrade as well.
Here's something that really hit me and was fun to listen to: With all previous amps, and like the "Pawnshop" album, you can hear the servers clinking the dishes. Well, I always thought they were dishes on this album, but with the SE upgrade you can clearly hear that they are bar glasses, the heavy kind. Its like the bartender is gathering them up with two hands and maybe putting them in the sink or something. Maybe with the next upgrade I'll be able to tell if the water in the sink was rinse water or soapy wash water. *lol*
Here's where we're at now. We can all sit back and say to ourselves, or hear our friends say ... "man, your SYSTEM sounds great." Last night the comments were ... "Man, THOSE GUYS SOUND GREAT!"
Is my exuberance over the top? Perhaps ... but I know my music, I know my record collection, and I know what I heard last night with this Paul Desmond album: Magic.
If you're interested, here's one for sale on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAUL-DESMOND-self-titled-s-t-LP-Artists-House-AH2-1978-NM-gatefold-/131335718730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e9438074a
And this one, while not a live performance, is just as good musically and performance wise. Jim Hall on guitar.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAUL-DESMOND-East-of-the-Sun-DISCOVERY-840-nm-w-Jim-Hall-Percy-Heath-Kay-/380659384073?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58a1113f09
Happy listening, guys ... |
Of course the goal is to know what was in those glasses, and whose lips were sipping from them. That's transportation. |
From my POV the best thing about spending hard earned retirement savings on audio gear is the continuing enjoyment after the purchase, whereas with most other possessions it's all about the aspirations; all too soon the bloom is off the rose. |
Timrhu ...
*lol*
Would you believe that I actually smelled Paul Desmond's tobacco breath?
I didn't think so. |
Tsushimal ...
You refer to ARC playing on a "crazy golf course." Hey man, this entire game of high end audio is a crazy golf course and the green fees are expensive as hell. Is the purchase of Lyra's flagship worth 10K? Well, that system I alluded to at the Newport Show two years ago in Randy Cooley's room was using the Atlas and it was simply amazing. The best sound at the show that year in my opinion. So, there was that cartridge at the forefront of a system costing over 300k. For the well heeled person who would buy such a system, the price of the Atlas is a drop in the bucket.
How about a pair of Venture speakers at 80k? That's the price of admission to experience what is most likely a speaker with the finest finish in the industry. The Venture speakers are beautiful. You also get a builder who is one of the kindest, least assuming, finest gentleman I've ever met. With the right gear, the Ventures go further to suspend disbelief more than any speaker I've heard. But of course to get it right, there goes another 300 grand out the window. That 300 grand is just for the electronics to drive the speakers. Now would you like to talk about the cost of the custom room addition to house the whole shebang?
Hey, someone, somewhere is buying Tom Port's "Hot Stampers" at $500.00 a pop too. Not to mention 15k for a meter pair of ICs.
In the ultra high end, there are no bargains. You pay the entry fee and then you get to play. That's the choice, pay the fee, or continue modifying Dyna 70s and PAS-3s.
Ferrari doesn't build cars for everyone, right?.
My point is ... you seem to have a particular negative bias toward ARC. Is it that you don't like the sound of ARC gear, or is it just something you have against the company in general? Lay out your case once and for all, then be done with it.
Take care ... |
Oregonpapa, Thanks for the Paul Desmond Artists House LP recommendation. That's one I didn't have so I bought it. Ebay is great for old jazz LPs! |
Oregonpapa...
My congratulations on your appointment as Obfiscation Central's new 'Point Man' I trust that you will endevour to handle product information and customer services with a little more transparency than we have been used to of late!
Perhaps you might make a start with the points raised in my previous post With respect to ARC's Global pricing of the SE upgrade package together with a little clearer detail as to the associated Warranty? As I feel certain that your clarification would prove of great interest to many 'loyal' ARC customers elsewhere. |
Jamnesta ...
As a semi-retired person myself, I couldn't agree with you more. Its important to make the purchases wisely. Buying quality gear is part of making purchases wisely. There's less depreciation and there is always the manufacturer to back you up in case something goes wrong. I'll bet if I offered a pair of Marantz Model Nines for the original price here on Audiogon, they'd be snapped up in a nano second and the buyer would be telling the world about what a steal he/she had gotten. |
Tsushimal ...
Sorry man, but you left me pondering the unexplored depths being probed by your wife's gynecologist.
I suggest that instead of trolling these boards in an attempt to find a whipping boy to assuage your infantile ego, that you go elsewhere. Start your own thread of insults and see who wants to play with you.
In the last post I made referencing you, I said the following:
"My point is ... you seem to have a particular negative bias toward ARC. Is it that you don't like the sound of ARC gear, or is it just something you have against the company in general? Lay out your case once and for all, then be done with it."
But of course, instead of standing up like a man and answering the simple questions, you just HAD to continue being an ass.
Now then ... be gone with you, You're not worth my time. |
Salectric ...
That Paul Desmond is one fantastic sounding record. Desmond at his finest. And wait 'till you hear the presence of the guitar on this record. Demo quality all the way. Good choice. Man, I love turning folks on to good records and music.
Take care ... |
My my Oregonpapa, all So predictable I am sorry to say, I rather think that the only one responding with an Infantile Strop Is yourself!
I have no intention in the slightest in pandering either to your pretentious and touchy ego or your 'demands' for any disclosure of a any malicious intent imagined or otherwise, however, please feel free to stamp your little hooves on the bridge for all you are worth.
Thus far, any points that I have raised in respect to the component changes and their respective costings are born out of practical expearience in this field, in considering the 'non official' disclosure that the bias operating point of the Kt150 remains unaltered within the models involved, then any associated and required component changes to the bias circuit would be minimal in practical terms, and in cost to the manufacturer.
We are led to believe some arbitrary percentage in terms of the efficacy of these enhancements over a non SE model, merely sporting a change to the KT150, of which, and for my part, having tweaked the performance of an number of disparate amplifier via the judicious use of upgraded passive components viz; Teflon capacitors ,Thick film resistors etc, etc, I remain sceptical of, in that without any 'significant' alteration to the performance curve, envelope, characteristics of the main output tube, or any 'significant' upgrade to either the Power Supply , Output transformers or coupling capacitors, that an improvment of "50%" is not entirely credible!
For any such seismic improvements I would be look for the next generation models, designed specifically around the Kt150, on which I am sure that work is well under way.
With all that said, I would hope for 'some' measure of improvements with an new build or newly serviced SE amplifier, freshly set up by an ARC technician, and that the worth of any such improvment is entirely of ones own personal consideration, with or without the exchange rate applied!
There remains only my one point of inquiry, in which the subjective does not apply, and one which I would expect members who have actually purchased or have ordered the SE upgrade, to be in a position to assist the rest of us, in respect of the 'small print' conditions that apply to the ARC 1 year warranty as advertised with this product upgrade? |
Trying to rate an improvement in terms of percentage is very subjective. If I'm listening to an amp that for some reason draws attention to itself, and the upgrade completely removes it then I may say wow that's a 100% better. In the case of my Ref 75 to the SE I can only say that I enjoy the sound much more than I did before. For me it's worth it. Going back to the non SE would not be an option now that I've heard it, even if you offered me my money back. I can remember being content with an old Kenwood receiver till I heard something better. Some of us like to continue to improve our systems others want to be content where they are. Both are ok. Companies Like ARC ( and others) are continuing to advance state of the art, that's what they do, and we love it. Good listening to all. |
Tsushima1 ...
Well congratulations, you almost made it through an entire post without making a smarmy personal attack. Almost.
Look, I could care less about exchange rates and biasing. That's not what this thread is about. Perhaps you should start your own thread addressing your concerns regarding tube biasing and exchange rates. Hey, you could start a series of threads ... one where you discuss capacitors, another discussing resistors and another one discussing slew rates. I'm sure some folks who frequent this site would find topics like that to be very interesting ... perhaps even orgasmic. For me, its about getting closer to the music ... and the SE upgrade certainly does that ... IN SPADES!
With that said, lets agree to disagree ... and move on.
One final suggestion ... install a spell checker.
Take care ... |
Thanks, Carey ... you are spot on in your assessment. I, like you, wouldn't want to go back to the standard REF-75 either. And that's after thinking before the SE upgrade that if my system never improved from there, I would be perfectly satisfied. What you and I are experiencing with the SE upgrade will soon be experienced by others on this thread who are sending their amps in for the upgrade. Once they pass a certain break-in point, they will be saying some of the same things we are, I'm sure. All I know is, I'm enjoying my vast record and CD collection more than I ever have ... and I've been in this hobby since the 1960's, a record collector since the 1950's and a devout music lover since the 1940's ... capacitors, resistors, slew rates and tube biasing be damned. *lol*
Take care ... and happy listening. |
I've been in this hobby since the 1960's, a record collector since the 1950's and a devout music lover since the 1940's ... capacitors, resistors, slew rates and tube biasing be damned. *lol*
Take care ... and happy listening.
Oregonpapa This puts you in your late 60s, early 70s? You sir have miracle ears!!! |
You don't have to have miracle ears to like what you hear, do you Timrhu? MY question is, why do SOME audiophiles feel so compelled to comment in a NEGATIVE manner without offering anything substantive one way or another? If the op wants and can afford to spend the cost for the upgrade and feels it well worth it why not be encouraging, offer something more than a terse comment or just ignore the thread? I really don't get it. |
Tubegroover, you miss read the intent of my post. |
Sorry if I misread your intent Timrhu. |
Tubegroover ...
Actually, I'm 76 years old. I've probably lost some of the high frequencies, but I don't seem to miss what's not there.*lol*
The amazing thing is, I really consider myself blessed with good hearing at my age. Hopefully it stays this way for many years to come.
The upgraded SE has 65 hours on it now ... and is continuing to improve. Another report to follow. Stay tuned. |
Okay ... 65 hours on the amp this morning and it has continued improving in every way. Honestly, I can't believe the realism I'm getting from the system now. And I know there is a lot more to come. The thing isn't fully broken in for 200-330 hours.
There is an album that was recorded in 1960 that is typical of great West Coast Jazz. It features Conti Candoli on trumpet, Buddy Collette on tenor, Vince Guaraldi on piano, Leroy Vinnegar on bass, and the great Stan Levy on drums. It's on the Crown label in both mono and stereo. The one to get is the stereo version pressed on red vinyl. That's the best sounding one. It's also available on CD. The CD version I have was rerecorded by Fresh Sounds. Its fantastic. Its a must have for any West Coast jazz fan.
I know this recording like I know the taste of great coffee. The new amp puts these musicians right there in your listening room. The SE version is so much faster than the old REF-75 that the rim shots from Levy's drums just hit you like never before. What a group!!
Here's what you're looking for .. the CD version:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conte-Candoli-All-Stars-Little-Band-Big-Jazz/360213846114?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29700%26meid%3D14712681c31c4de7b0fc76956a4ba26c%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D3%26sd%3D191544223143
There are a number of LPs for sale too, but be sure to get the red vinyl stereo one. its worth waiting for. |
I love the post (and your experience with the new amp). I was delighted with the link and quite anxious to order the CD, BUT... I have tidal! If you log on to tidal, that awesome CD is right there!
How cool is that? Thanks for the recommndation, Oregonpapa. Enjoy your new amp! |
Sorry if I misread your intent Timrhu.
Tubegroover No problem. After rereading my post I can understand your interpretation. To be clear though, I'm 60 and suffer from tinnitus and a loss of high frequency hearing; probably from working around jet aircraft during twenty years in the Air Force. I should've been more concerned with hearing loss back in the 70s. Even with these issues I can enjoy high quality music playback. And like Oregonpapa, can hear details other less critical listeners seem to miss. I believe it comes down to how closely we pay attention. Anyway, in the spirit of this weekend's final four, no harm, no foul. |
I don't doubt the OP's and others enthusiastic response to the SE upgrade, but I would still love to hear of anyone who has made a direct comparison of a 75SE and a 75 re tubed with KT150's, as my amp is. However good your hearing is, I question whether you can compare the 2 amps with a 2 week gap say, allowing for the time of the upgrade back at ARC central.
If my dealer gets a 75SE in stock, I will take my amp over to do the comparison. I am still not sure myself, how much improvement is from the tubes and how much the other component changes ARC make, whatever they are. |
Hi David12:
Would look forward to your comparison review. I too have KT 150s in my Ref 150 and would like to hear what the se version brings to the table that I don't already have. 5k is alot if, like me, you had already purchased a new set of KT 150s and dropped them in. |
David & Gp ..
I had a golden eared friend over to hear the new SE version this morning. He's very familiar with my system. He's heard the standard REF-75 with the KT-150s in the system a hundred or more times in lengthy listening sessions. This guy is well known in audio circles and is a real critic believe me. He hears like a friggin' bat. His assessment was, the SE is better than the stock SE, even with the KT-150 tubes, in every way. He did say that he would like to hear the mid-range fill out a bit more (me too). But, keep in mind that the amp only has 65 hours on it at this point. My experience with the recent ARC products is ... a bit thin sounding upon initial operating until about 100 hours ... then at 200 hours, things really start cooking. At 300-500 hours the complete break-in is there. So ... while the new amp is sounding great to me at this point, much improvement is still on the way. The things I like in my system ... Tonal rightness, three dimensional sound stage, low noise floor, dynamics, speed of attack, great mid-range for vocals etc., are there already ... but more to come. Nice! |
Oregonpapa, I just went back and reread the entire thread looking for a bit of info and didn't see it. My apologies if I missed it.
What speakers are you using?
Also, this was a fairly testy thread wasn't it? |
Also what preamp are you using? |
Here's my system:
Turntable: Original Well Tempered - modified. Tonearm rewired with Cardas wire. Custom belt by OriginLive. (highly recommended.)
Cartridge - Audio Technica OC9 MK III (Love AT cartridges) Besides being a neutral sounding cartridge, its terrific on mono records. Really gets down in the groove. Groovy!
Phono: ARC PH-8 Retubed with Upscale Audio tubes.
CD player: ARC CD-7 SE with factory upgraded power supply.
Preamp: ARC REF-3 Retubed with Upscale Audio tubes.
Amp: ARC REF-75 SE
Speakers: Legacy Signature IIIs - Cardas copper binding posts. 94db efficient. Can be driven with a 20 watt receiver or a modified Dyna 70. The REF-75 SE just coasts with this speaker. The Signature III's are no longer in the Legacy line. Too bad - its a winner.
Room treatments: Shataki Holograms - two against front wall, two in rear. (dramatic improvement - highly recommended)
Speaker cables: Music Advancement Company (MAC) biwired.
ICs - ARC balanced ICs between CD player and Preamp & between preamp and amp. Yes, ARC sold their own branded ICs a few years ago. I was lucky enough to score the last two.
Nexus ICs from Turntable to PH-8 & PH-8 to REF-3.
Power cords: Custom built by Dave Magnan.
AC filter: Custom built with modified filters built by Dave Magnan.
Wall sockets - upgraded audiophile quality.
VPI record cleaning machine.
Shelving: Custom built. Each shelf consists of three layers of wood with dampening material between each layer, then nicely finished with formica.
Custom platforms are under each component consisting of two layers of heavy, finely finished granite material with a thick layer of dampening material between the granite layers.
Mapleshade 2" thick maple platforms under each speaker. The platforms are spiked to the floor through the carpet, then the speakers are spiked to the platforms. (huge improvement in speaker performance.)
As you can see, there has been quite an effort to control micro vibrations in my system. The theory is ... the only thing we want vibrating in our systems is that little wire that protrudes from the cartridge body. This effort has paid off really well. It accounts for a lot of the 3D imaging and the "see through" quality of the system. ARC has been at the forefront in this area with their equipment. ARC owners are very much aware of these efforts with internal damping material and the tube dampening rings.
I use PRO Gold contact cleaner and contact enhancer on all connections including tube pins. Also, I periodically demagnetize my cartridge with my trusty old Sumiko cartridge demagnetizer. I make my own record cleaning fluid that I would put up against the best. I've tried most out there.
Happy listening guys. Stay tuned, more record review to come as the REF-75 SE continues to break in. |
Incidentally, the (to me anyway) stupid high prices of some gear is not so you can "get one whenever you want," (a patently lame reason, but sort of funny) but simply to supply company owners/shareholders with as much profit as possible which is simply the way the business world works. |
Wolf ...
And without "profit," the doors don't stay open, R&D shuts down and the next great product from that particular company ceases to come forth. When company owners and shareholders benefit, we all benefit. The only way they can continue doing business is to please the TRUE BOSS ... and that is we, the customers. Just free market principles at work. I have yet to hear quality stereo gear that has come out of Cuba, East Germany under Soviet Rule ... or Communist Romania. :>) |
Room treatments: Shataki Holograms - two against front wall, two in rear. (dramatic improvement - highly recommended) Gotta ask what your grandkids think of those? I ask because mine think my room is "the bomb." |
Oregonpapa, you obviously have a great system. I am just wondering if your cartridge is really up to par with the gear you are using. I figure between your amp, pre-amp and phone pre-amp you are into it retail price of 29k. But then you are using a 500.00 cartridge. I would think with the kind of gear you are using you would of at least have a 2k cartridge. They always say an audio system is only as good as it's weakest link. |
Timrhu ...
*lol*
My grand kids are all in their middle to late twenties ... and they think grampa is completely bonkers. Of course they have completely forgotten the times when they used to dance between the Accustat 4s when they were little kids. Now, the fourth generation has come along ... my first ... one year old great grand daughter. And you know what ... I think SHE's the bomb.
By the way, I was listening to some Chet Baker this morning ... "Chet Baker Sings." Mostly mono stuff, but the kind of mono that has you thinking: "Who needs stereo!" How so many of today's audiophiles can stand the stuff that's drenched in artificial digital reverb is beyond me.
The amp sounded fantastic this morning. More to come. Stay tuned. :>) |
04-04-15: Wolf_garcia
Incidentally, the (to me anyway) stupid high prices of some gear is not so you can "get one whenever you want," (a patently lame reason, but sort of funny) but simply to supply company owners/shareholders with as much profit as possible which is simply the way the business world works. Incidentally, prices are not stupidity high if there's enough demand to support a business. It's only stupidity high if one cannot afford it or more than market will bear and push a company to ch11 (to me anyway). |
I'm sorry but one should take any "review" from any 76 year old with a friendly grain of salt. Unless the reviewer publishes hearing tests to accompany the review. I don't mean to sound harsh in any way, ... but it is what it is, and there's no getting around it. |
Taters, price of gear has IMHO NOTHING to do with ability. The higher the price, one thing is probable, the higher the profit. Nothing to do with the higher SQ. This supposed dictum...price rates to quality and SQ, is NOT an absolute in our hobby, although I know that most a'philes like to think so. ( ok, my flame suit is on).
Abrew19, since when is age any predicator as to one's ability to a) determine the accuracy of sound reproduction compared to the perception of the "real' and b) determine what one likes in their reproduced sound. IMHO, Oregonpapa has just as much ability ( if not more) to "review" a piece of gear as the next guy...and maybe more, since his experience level will most likely be a lot greater! |
Dave F, I agree price isn't everything when it comes to sound quality. But Oregonpapa is running top of the line gear so you would assume he would be using a top flight cartridge. If he was running a Rega brio with Kef Ls 50 speakers I would of not made a comment. |
Taters ...
Thanks for your comments re: cartridges. I admit, the OC-9 MKIII isn't the end all in cartridges, but I like what it does, especially on mono records. I've had more expensive cartridges ... the Clavis comes to mine. Yes, it gave me more detail ... but did it give me a more accurate musical presentation? I love the Audio Technica sound. The next upgrade I make will be to the AT ART-9. Based upon what others have said about it on these boards, its like an OC-9-III on steroids. Same musicality, but a lot more refined.
Abrew19 ...
I can appreciate your take on my hearing. There is no doubt that someone my age has lost some high frequencies, but all of the other accoutrements that you enjoy about high-end audio are still intact. I've had more experience than most when it comes to hearing live music .. and a lot of it close up. I readily recognize the proper tonality of a soprano saxophone or the shimmer of a brushed cymbal for example. There is no problem recognizing front to back depth, or side to side sound staging. I know "live" from reproduced very well ... and that's how I judge any audio system, mine or the other guy's. Here's the true test of any audio system: When you listen to a jazz group on a good system, do you think to yourself: "Damn, this SYSTEM sound great, or do you think ... Damn, THOSE GUYS sound great? Again, I can tell that difference, and to me, that's the important thing. Its all about the music.
Daveyf ...
I agree with you on the price of equipment. I've heard systems costing 100-200k that seem to get a lot right ... like the soundstage all the way to the back corners, all the depth you can imagine, and transparency to die for ... but after 20 minutes or so of listening, you want to be doing something else. Why? Because it isn't making music. Its boring. On the other hand, I have a little bedroom system that's driven by a Sherwood 7100 receiver built back in the 70s that makes music ... and it has a great headphone amp built in too. I can listen to that cheap piece of crap for hours while doing my computer work. The thing makes music. The price? Twenty bucks at the local thrift store. *lol* |
A brew 19, you mentioned that Oregonpapa might not have good hearing at 76. I bet he has better hearing than these punks that drive around blasting their rap through 10 sub-woofers and multiply high powered amplifiers. |
I'll reiterate for the record...a price is "stupidly high" if the item's performance or parts value or manufacturing cost isn't close to 5 or 10 times more "actually" valuable than something well made but less expensive. Plenty of wiggle room here, but my guitar amp analogy was missed I think...a hand made guitar amp with custom transformers in a well made hand crafted box of expensive void free plywood often with a great speaker included (in the case of "combo" amps), that's not made overseas (although I don't mind that) may cost 2 grand or so at the high end...compared to an ARC power amp with tubes in a folded metal case...some meters maybe...whatever...for 10 thousand clams...a mystery to me only maybe...but a mystery just the same. |
Wolf ...
Why do guitar collectors pay $30,000 for mint, vintage Les Pauls? Why not just buy a new Yamaha? Why would someone buy a new Ferrari for $300,000, when one could buy a new Corvette for $70,000 with the same, or better performance? What is the mystique about a Porsche Twin Turbo? Why would a stamp or coin collector pay millions for just one item? Why a 200 foot yacht, when a 100 foot yacht floats too?
What you're paying for is R&D, and the ultimate in performance. Granted, there is a point of diminishing returns, but for the affected nutz like me, and other's on this site, the last drop is worth having if you can afford it. And, you buy up to the maximum of what you can afford providing there is a definite improvement to be had.
Other things to consider are: will the manufacturer stand by the product after delivery? Will there be a trickle down effect from the factory's absolute state of the art to subsequent lower priced products ... like the REF-75 SE and the cool integrated amp ARC offers? Then, there is the profit thing ... the doors have to stay open, the light bill paid, the phone bill paid, the wages paid, the rent paid ...
It all adds up to expensive products that those willing to pay the price want to have. Its simply supply and demand. |
I just listened to the Paul Desmond/Ed Bickert LP recommended by Oregonpapa. Very nice! Thanks for the recommendation. If you like Ed Bickert, let me recommend another live recording where he is featured----The Bob Brookmeyer Small Band on the Gryphon label. Great playing and spooky, you are there sound quality. |
People pay an extra 10K for a Passat that VW has put 20 Euros worth of metal rings on front and back.
Much of audio is ego-trip ploys as well. |
Come to that Schubert, they pay 5 to $10000, extra for a Passat than a Skoda Superb. Same VW group, bigger, better made IMHO, just made on Czeckoslakia. I do'nt know if they are imported to the US, but my Superb is better engineered and put together than the Mercedes C class I had before.
Getting back to costs of HiFi, compared to the 70's, it is a hand made cottage industry now. Even companies like ARC, are in no way, shifting the units they were 30 years ago. So R and D, marketing, construction etc are loaded onto far fewer units made. Your classic loss of economies of scale. Even accepting that, costs do seem to be rising very fast indeed. A top of the range power amp might cost $5 to 7000, 7 to 10 years ago, now $20000 seems to be an accepted norm for a good single chassis amp and over $100,000 not unusual, to rich for me. |
04-07-15: Wolf_garcia
I'll reiterate for the record...a price is "stupidly high" if the item's performance or parts value or manufacturing cost isn't close to 5 or 10 times more "actually" valuable than something well made but less expensive. Plenty of wiggle room here, but my guitar amp analogy was missed I think...a hand made guitar amp with custom transformers in a well made hand crafted box of expensive void free plywood often with a great speaker included (in the case of "combo" amps), that's not made overseas (although I don't mind that) may cost 2 grand or so at the high end...compared to an ARC power amp with tubes in a folded metal case...some meters maybe...whatever...for 10 thousand clams...a mystery to me only maybe...but a mystery just the same. Well, either companies are pricing themselves out of business or majority of consumers have more disposable income then you. If you want something, work to improve your economical situation instead of complaining of high prices and how big bad companies are ripping you off. It's NEVER personal responsibilities but how somebody, company ... is ripping you off. Sad! |
True David.
In Germany a VW is a "classless" car, ever the very rich drive them and that's the reason most average folk still buy VW,
even though a Skoda w is what you say it is.
And no, VW will never bring Skoda to USA to compete with itself. |
David 12, you make a good point. I bought my ARC vt-100mklll in 2002 and I paid 6000.00 for it. If I wanted to upgrade to a Ref-150 I would have to spend 13k on it and possibly more if they are only offering the SE model at this time. I would love to upgrade but I can't see dropping 10 large after I sell my amp. |
Just a quick comment on the rising prices. Has the price of the equipment gone up ... or has the value of the money gone down? Has anyone checked out the price of beef lately?
Look, in 1965, I had a brand new house in Huntington Beach that I paid $20,650 for. Gasoline was 27 cents per gallon. Milk was 25 cents a quart and a steak & egg breakfast at Norm's restaurant was $1.29.
The monetary system isn't tied to anything anymore, so as long as the government's "printing press" is allowed to run with abandon, we can count on prices continuing to rise. Its called "inflation," the most evil type of tax in existence. It punishes those on fixed incomes, the poor and it robs savings. Until people wake up and demand that the money system be put back into the hands of the citizen again, we are screwed. The thing to remember is, fiat money is the money of slaves. Gold is the money of a free man.
Here's an essay written by Alan Greenspan in 1966 that explains it in detail:
http://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm
So, there's my political rant for the day. I hope you young whippersnappers read it and work for change. :>) |
