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Significant steps? (DAC)

Thought I'd get some opinions on where the significant audible steps are in DAC/DAC amp/stack are.   Sure, ESS sounds different from AKM, Op amps are different. Good discrete class A can be different. Tiny tiny differences.  Where are the big differences. Big for a Dac of course as there is little real difference from a Apple Dongle to a Pontius to insanity? 

Step one. The dongle. $12. Good for portable. Most would agree, not quite hi-fi but actually listenable on the move. 

Step Two. Real DACs made for hi-fi. $200 stack, DAC/amp. e.g Schiit or JDS stack, Topping DX3pro+, etc. These can be pretty good. Similar to respectable internals in integrated amps of respect.  Popular priced, high volume,  chip based.  They all sound about the same to me.  Maybe with $1000 headphones you can pick out differences. The better of them "do-no-wrong"  which is significant in my book. The Sabaj A20 and the Gustard A26 have the same chip set, both mass produced, op amp etc.  Why a 3X price difference? Just the streamer feature? Is this group, sub 1K maybe, where the "all DACs sound the same comes from?  Or like me, having heard an expensive but not very good one biased them into a steadfast spec chasers?  ( Bad experience, but my mind/ears are still open) 

Step three.  It gets harder. I would expect not just not bad, but something actually better.  Different moving to the cheapest R2R or higher end D/S.  Is the  difference from the DX3 to a D70 really significant? RME in here?  Better or just different to justify 2 to 5 times the price?  Every reviewer at this price claims every new one is worlds apart and the new budget champ. Really?  Higher price may be justified as more expensive chips, R2R are of course difficult, better power supplies, better output buffers. Without direct comparison, is this a level you can live with happily and just listen to the music? Are there still actual flaws in the performance? Do you need to have a system appropriately balanced components with speakers above 10K to hear the difference?  Can you hear it on an Audiolab integrated and set of Sonas Faber Illuminas? 

Step four. Expecting serious entry to high end.  Is it at the maybe Mearson or Gustard R26/A26 level? Qutest?  Or are these really small increments from less?   Is the real step having to go Holo or mid-line Denafrips?   2K or is it 3? 4? Where is that "real" step? Does dealer vs direct sale move things between steps? What would a Aris cost if it was through a dealer chain? Price difference and the need for a preamp would put it almost 4K.  Is that good?  

Higher?  After several grand, does it really cost more and justify higher prices, or are you buying the case and prestige?  I have probably not heard the right ones, as the upper end I have heard, the difference to my bottom end was very slight. Does a Birkman or Berkley really change things? What can they do in a box at DCS that is worth $140K that actually sounds better than one for 3 or 5K, or $200 for that matter? Maybe technically close to perfect, but how far above the studio recording and mastering makes any difference. GIGO. 

So, where are the dividing lines that separate significant performance differences?  What product is a bulwark for that tier? 

tvrgeek
facten
2,878 posts
 

"Would I actually hear a difference between a Pontus and Biftost? Three times the price, is it twice as good? Only slight? A Qutest over my JDS? 16 times the price? How much better? How much more would I enjoy a few hundred more CDs over the electronics?"

No one can really answer this question for you only you can by listening and comparing them in your system. If you are skeptical about will there be/can there be added performance with the extra dollar cost then your choices are to either directly assess and conclude for yourself , or find the most satisfying unit that you can within the price range you are comfortable with/can afford and enjoy. It seems the criticisms about more expensive units and how you view them are superfluous to your intended outcome as you have no intention of spending the money on them. Personal time and energy wasted is never a good thing

tvrgeek OP
299 posts
 

Problem is getting them to listen to.  I can borrow a Qutest, but that is about it. 

Having a background in engineering and manufacturing, I know there is a limit where you exceed marginal improvements and transition into magic.  There is just nothing left to do. Sorry if you have one, but $140K for a DAC is not perfection, it is pure bragging rights. Hopefully as good as one for 1/10the price.  3K? 5K? Within the real engineering realm audible or not. Maybe even a little more. My biggest gripe is at that level, they have left out important audible features. No excuse.  $100 or even 1K depending on technology is cost constrained. Not 5K. 

I was hoping for some units I have not heard of to search out. Not everything makes it into You-Tube shills glowing reviews. 

jl35
3,981 posts
 

I replaced a Denafrips Ares ll with a very well reviewed and tested SMSL DO100 , as part of a downsizing. I felt the Ares ll was significantly better, though the SMSL a good value at it's frequent Amazon sale price...

facten
2,878 posts
 

@tvrgeek  "Sorry if you have one, but $140K for a DAC is not perfection, it is pure bragging rights.".  I don't have one ,  don't seek out listening to one because it isn't in my realm of spending on one piece of audio equipment, don't presumptuously judge what I haven't heard ,don't begrudge those who choose  to purchase a  Wadax ($140K DAC) .

ghdprentice
6,966 posts
 

From the engineering and manufacturing perspective while the part cost goes up with higher quality DACs the engineering cost goes up much faster. It isn’t simply a matter of choosing “a better quality” part, it is a mater of choosing one that sounds better and synergistic with the other components… so one would evaluate a dozen different kinds of one part… say resistor. Every iteration of the design must be broken in and compared sonically with other versions. This is why a new DAC will literally take more than a year to design by highly skilled engineers (only those that have the skills to design, but also to hear nuanced differences in sound and the patience to work towards a very specific outcome.

In the inexpensive DAC arena, one can go to a parts supplier or contract manufacturer in China and say, I’d like you to build me a DAC… they will give you a standard design for free… you choose the color, the insignia, and if you would like any parts upgrade packages. Then they will make them for you. This is how we get such cheap electronics. I have been to most of these contract manufacturers in China.

 

Then as far as is the sound worth it. That is entirely a value judgement on an individual basis, and also subject to listening skills and experience. Audiophiles value better sound. Better sound at higher levels is more and more about nuances and consistency across the entire audio spectrum. I, as most audiophiles appreciate better sound as each aspect gets better… it approaches the real thing at the macro and micro level.

Most normal people think anyone is crazy and wasting their money for buying separates of any kind and would not do it. For them, they have the right level of investment and sound quality. I have always worked endlessly to get the very best sound for the absolutely maximum budget I could afford. It makes me very happy. I am very happy and satisfied with my current system: average component cost at $20K. If I could afford it I would take a couple years and upgrade my system to $40K average component cost and my system would sound significantly (and well worth the investment to me) and make me even happier. Arguing that there is one “right” investment level for everyone or there is an absolute “right”  is simply wrong and quite honestly just egotistical.

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