smaller speakers for critical listening?

@northman --

I know that may be a ridiculous question; of course one can sit down with Radio Shack speakers and engage in serious listening, and of course the experience is subjective for all of us. I’m actually asking for subjective responses here. If your goal is a system for critical listening, do you think smaller speakers can do the trick or do you need the bigger soundstage and depth that can come with floor-standing, planar, or electrostatic speakers?

Interesting question. In some vital respects I’d go so far to say that a smaller, typically stand-mounted 2-way speaker (a single full-range driver per channel as a singular point source with no cross-over would, in principle, be a better example) is a reference that I hold my current set-up against. As a friend of mine pointed out to me not long ago after listening to a pair of (the original) Snell J speakers driven by a Sugden A48 integrated amp and a streaming source, he’d found that listening experience to be telling of what had originally formed the basis of his endeavor into audio reproduction, and to which I agree; the simple, coherent and inherently musical presentation afforded by these components was spellbinding, and an instant reminder what it was and still is, at its core, all about. Any smaller 2-way speaker wouldn’t do as in this case the old Snell’s had a beguiling ability to capture the listener with said qualities, but it goes to show that added complexity - a common and often necessary "component" with bigger speakers - has its price and that, by and large, working with more cross-over points, point sources and different drivers is in a sense an act of damage control. Maybe that’s why my friend’s current main speakers are still a 2-way design, albeit scaled up in size as a different design and augmented with a pair of subs - as is the case with my own set-up. Scaling up a smaller 2-way design in keeping it 2-way isn’t without its challenges, but once we go there size in itself as well as the different design choices dictated here comes in handy as a primary physical factor that’s indispensable for anything approaching authenticity in reproduction. One could, as has been recommended by poster @atmasphere augment smaller, again, typically 2-way speakers with subs (less than 4 of them would also do, and if not they needn’t be Swarm per se - just to dodge the business affiliation at play here), and it would be a viable way to maintain the qualities of simplicity of smaller speakers while seeing an uptick in scale and possibly other areas. Myself though I like to keep the smaller and simpler design untarnished to act as a reference in that regard, and instead take the leap into scaling up the whole of the package. Where I would venture into more than 2 cross-over points in the main speakers is with the Synergy horn speaker design invented and patented by Tom Danley of Danley Sound Labs, which effectively (and successfully) emulates a single point source per channel in merging the response of several drivers mounted at the backsides and center of a shared horn flare. A brilliant design, really.

One more thing Northman, you can put almost any speaker in any room if you want to.
Sound Labs 545's are actually a smaller room loudspeaker. If you can get them 8 feet apart you are in business. They are only 24" wide. 

I'm of two minds about answering the question.
Can a stand mounted monitor be satisfying to listen to?
Hell yes!
Can it be satisfying in the long run as the only speaker to own?
Not so sure, for me.


I usually own multiple speakers, though I've cut down a bit.  Right now I own two floor standing speakers:   Thiel 2.7 and Joseph Audio Perspectives.   And three stand mounted:   Spendor S3/5s,  Waveform Mach MC, Thiel 02.


In some ways the stand mounted monitors are my reference sound for musical enjoyment.  The tone and coherence of the Thiel and the Spendors just make me swoon.    And I find I can really enjoy a wide range of music, from classical to prog rock to funk to electronic, you name it.  Even the teeny little Spendor S3/5s provide just enough bass to not make me miss the big speakers too much when listening.   If I truly want to "just enjoy the music" it seems I throw up the stand mounted speakers.




But then, being an audiophile :-) I can start to crave a bit more.   Image size, especially on the Spendors are much smaller,  on many tracks.Often that doesn't bother me because the tone is so engaging - swelling string sections make me swoon at how beautiful they sound.   But, knowing there is "more" to be had gets my itch going.   Also, sometimes I just like to crank the sound, especially to listen from outside the room when I'm on my computer down the hall, or in the kitchen.   A small speaker just runs out of steam and doesn't have a convincing punch in the bass.  



The floor standing speakers can just "slam" in that regard in a very satisfying way.


The little Spendors can do an amazing magic show in terms of spacious imaging.   But the Thiel and Joseph floor standing speakers go even further, making almost full sized flesh and blood musicians appear in a massive soundstage.   It's hard to give up those kind of sonic goodies.And when tracks play in which instruments plumb the lower frequencies, the bigger speakers can be so satisfying.   I was listening to a soundtrack on the Joseph Perspectives and there were these deep low brass section parts, and synth bursts down low that just felt so dynamicand impactful in a way the stand mounted speakers would never do.



So really I kind of go back and forth.  When I'm listening to my stand mounted speakers I often start thinking "isn't this all I need?   Wouldn't life be simpler if I just used stand mounted speakers?"  (I move speakers around).   And it lasts for quite a while.   But then I get the bigger sound itch that only the floor standers can scratch.   Hence, it's hard for me to part with all my speakers and stick with only one.

I can't afford $7k speakers, otherwise I would lean towards Boenicke W5. They blow me away when I first heard them. I have heard them them again after that and they are special. 

Someone suggested Dutch & Dutch 8 and they are also good but I prefer Boenicke. If you want to try active speakers you can also listen to Kii Three. More expensive but includes amp and dac, like D&D.

Thank you all for such thoughtful, engaged responses. It means a lot to me that so many took the time to consider the question with such care. I'd especially like to thank @verdantaudio, @phusis, and @prof for their meditations. 

I hear a few of you circling @prof's remark: "Can a stand mounted monitor be satisfying to listen to? Hell yes! Can it be satisfying in the long run as the only speaker to own? Not so sure, for me."

That's where I get stuck. For a number of reasons including my budget, I can't set up multiple systems. So at least for now it comes down to purchasing "the only speaker I'll own." Of course, the problem is existential at the moment: auditioning any speaker is difficult for me, let alone doing a home trial. My real concern, as I think I've stated, is that I don't want to upgrade to "better" speakers, I don't just want good sound. I want to fall in love when I listen to music, an experience I've had in the past but not with my current speakers. I fully understand that stand mounted speakers can be wonderful. I'm just worried that I'll get that "itch" for "more." Many of you have talked about bass, so perhaps I should be thinking more intently about that, especially with stand mounts. My original question--which posters here took seriously--is about "the long run," the question of critical listening, the deep pleasure of music. I know that no one can answer that *for me*, but I appreciate hearing what other people think. 

I do understand that it comes down to trying out a lot of speakers and working with the room. Once the world rights itself, I look forward to that. I can hear some of the speakers mentioned here by traveling 5-6 hours (to NYC and Boston). It does feel to me, perhaps naively, that I'm trying to decide between two different approaches, two ways of narrowing the search: stand mounts (and a sub?) or floor-standing. But perhaps this is too simplistic. 

I'll toss another active speaker this time a  floor standing full range  in the pot. 18hz-24khz +-3db , 

https://www.safeandsoundhq.com/products/dynaudio-focus-60-xd-floorstanding-loudspeaker-open-box-pair...

I notice above headphonedream preferred the Boenicke W5 to Dutch and Dutch . We all have our preference and me telling you which I prefer doesn't really mean much but since some are sharing their preferences I will say I sold Joseph audio Perspectives 2 and kept the D&D, they are amazing speakers. 

At a root level...the answer to profs question of "can you be truly happy in the long run with a small speaker" the answer is it depends on who you are.

I am now at 8 years with small speakers and likely will not go back to floor standers any time soon if ever. I have had Sunfire HRS SATs, B&W M-1s, Revel Performa3 M105s, Raidho X-1s, my own Verdant Audio Nightshade & Blackthorns, Scansonic MB-1Bs and I am probably going to get a pair of Audiovector R1s here soon. I am all in for stand-mount speakers but that is my preference. Without a subwoofer, the image is decidedly smaller. With a subwoofer...it is close assuming the right speaker. That is the key. (And this is not just because I only produce stand-mounts.  I have begun working on floor standers).

How do you find a speaker that has the right tone that you react to in the right way? When you say critical listening, are you looking for refinement and accuracy vs. listening experience and musicality? I had a blogger over to listen to a few speakers and at one point, he commented on the two speakers we were focused on and said "this is definitely the better speaker but that one is just more fun."  There is an element of refinement and excellence but also musicality and enjoyment.  

The only way to do that is listen. Schedule appointments. Use the same tracks and take copious notes while you are listening. Focus on a narrowed list of both types of speakers. If a speaker fails vs your test, don’t waste your time. I have a series of six tracks that I go through that if a speaker didn’t check the box I was looking for on any one of them, I would just move on.

Finally, on the note of small speakers sounding big. This is extreme, but read the review in the Absolute Sound of the Raidho TD 1.2s. They are $23K list price speakers but the reviewer ran an experiment where they brought three people in to listen to them blindfolded and asked them what they were listening too. Two of the three thought they were listening to electrostats or planars (admittedly not full range). That immersive sound experience can be achieved at prices below $23K but that to me is what we are all trying to achieve when producing small speakers that deliver big and immersive sounds.

If and when you are ready to demo, you ought to check out Audiovector R1, Raidho X-1, Monitor Audio Platinum 100s, Magico A1, and I would encourage you to stop by and listen to my (verdant audio) Blackthorn & Nightshades for small speakers that sound big. Verdant obviously only if you make it to the NYC Area.

For small floor standers, the Audiovector R3 (read Andrew Quints review in TAS), Scansonic MB5 B (Raidho floorstanders are very pricey),Verity Finns, Vandersteen, Spendor D7.2 and 9.2, Magico A3 and for a speaker that is large for a stand mount but not really and floorstander, the Harbeth 40.2 are all very much worth your time to listen too I think.

There are countless others as illustrated by this another threads. These are just ones that I have heard and know sound excellent and I think will age well and limit the yearning for...more.

With the right track, when I close my eyes even the tiny Spendors can sound about as big as my floor standing speakers!
However, other content will sound decidedly smaller.
(Basically if it's a recording that contains instruments and voices recorded and mixed to sound forward and large, they can sound that way on the tiny speaker.   But with more distant, smaller image sizes the smaller speaker shrinks things a lot more - e.g. certain symphony recordings - where the larger speaker portrays things with a more consistent sense of larger scale.   That's in my experience anyway.

Here's a though experiment for you, @prof (if you're reading this):

Let's say you pick up a top notch recording of _____ (take your pick: Kind of Blue; Beethoven's Grosse Fugue; Morton Feldman's Trio; Workingman's Dead; Joni Mitchell's Blue; Aja; or maybe something that *you* actually like). I'm thinking of something ambitious, precise, and not too busy/loud. You pour a glass of something warming, sit down, and listen. Which speakers?

northman,
Honestly it depends on what speaker I'm in to at the moment.   I just got an LP I've been waiting for and I'm excited to cue it up on the Joseph Perspectives (which are set up because, after a while of listening to the Spendors, I got the itch for the Josephs).

Fair enough, prof! I know it was an unfair question but I thought I'd ask. 

Having owned many smallish speakers over my lifetime,  I would/do not turn to them for premium performance,  for what should be obvious reasons. 

To think you need large speakers for critical listening is living in the past. DSP and new waveguides and other improvements in active speakers make them some of the best for critical listening as long as you’re not trying to fill a huge room with them. In my opinion speakers like Dutch and Dutch, Kii, Grimm, GGNTKT are the future . They give simple one box solutions and don’t over power rooms which I think younger people are looking for not to mention their performance is astounding.

Try to find a used Westlake BBSM-4. Got plenty of "small" speakers for desktop listening, but these will never be put in the wardrobe. Using them with two smallish REL subs for big sound.

I've seen the BBSM-6 on Reverb used but the 4 doesn't come around to often.

Yes, curious about them too, but got the BBSM-10 monitors as well (in the wardrobe at the moment..) and there is a limit to how many speakers you can have of the same brand :-) Please tell if anybody have some experience from the BBSM-6. 

I am kinda going through the same struggle myself.   I haven’t had a pair of floor speakers since my Advents 30 years ago.  I have had to settle for bookshelf speakers (Paradigm Atoms, ELAC Debut 6.2s) due to the Air Force insistence I move overseas every couple years.  Now I am retired and not willing to spend megabucks on my older damaged hearing.  My ELACs have been wonderful for near distance critical listening with an added subwoofer.  Lately, though, I have been wanting to see if floor speakers might kick up my critical listening enjoyment, and I finally pulled the trigger on some Zu DWs.  I know they are relatively inexpensive floor speakers (or so I tell my wife), but for me they are a real investment.   They are scheduled to be shipped out next week from Provo.  In the meantime, I have been indulging in headphones (HIFIMAN HE 400i and Drop Meze 99s).   

Beonicke W5
unbelievable resolution, soundstage, accuracy and realism—in a tiny box. Just VERY power hungry

Harbeth p3ser, that's what I'd listen to. Fabulous build quality and very natural, And small.......

I guess I have to ask "what is 'critical listening'"?  You hook up some Radio Shack speakers.  You know they're cheap.  So what are you critiquing?  Give me an example of a conclusion you might make.  (e.g., 'the violins sound tinny ...'?)  If you are listening 'critically' to music (although I'm not quite sure what that is either--listening for musical detail? mistakes in the playing?), you'll likely hear plenty of the music to critique no matter what sound system you have.  You could do that with 78s.

Satellites with subs have been one of my favorite answers for years.  Start with a small speaker that will give you great mids and highs.  I work at Vandersteen and use the VLRCT.  This is a recent addition to the VLR lineup and gives full information for the mids and highs.  I don't yet have the Vandersteen SUB THREE but I intend on adding that in the near future.  Do you have room for a subwoofer too?  

Difficult room in what way? Do you have a back wall to work with? If so try the Larsen speakers from Sweden. They use the floor-to-wall interface to give you great bass and accurate stereo in almost any room. Several price points correlating to room size. 

@northman

I have a small room, 11X12. Just due to space constraints I went with stand mounted monitors made by ATC. I think if the selection of speaker provides an accurate representation of the music it will work well for critical listening. I critically listen near field, The sound stage is as wide as the room. I couldn’t ask for anything else. I don’t want my room to sound like Symphony Hall as it would be more difficult to suspend my disbelief, but with the small room that I have, chock full of speakers and subs, equipment and record racks I still have an excellent sound stage and can hear every detail even at low volume levels.

It’s not the best to be sure. When Jim Smith of Get Better Sound saw the layout he almost croaked. We muddled through the setup and I couldn’t be more pleased. If I had the space I would have a bigger room with bigger speakers and a bigger sound stage. Alas, that will have to wait for my next time around.

The new Kef LS50 META is a KILLER speaker! I have them in my system now for evaluation and I can tell you these are not your daddy's old LS50. The new meta damping technology is something special as I've owned the LS50 in the past and this is almost a very different speaker. Out of the box, they sound like pizza boxes. Give them some power for a few days of break-in and they BLOSSOM! Imaging, sound staging, transparency, detail, extension, cohesiveness---they are an outright steal at $1500 list. 5 star! And if you get a pair from Amazon, you have until Jan 31, 2021 to return them if you don't like them. But buy them from your local dealer and keep them 'cause they are THAT GOOD.

Bought a pair of (used) Joesph Audio Pulsar, for my small living room (apartment) and am done looking. I am 75 years and have been looking for decades.

If you are considering Harbeth P3ESR, then please have a listen to the Proac Tablette 10 Signature. I compared it, not side by side unfortunately, and preferred the Proac. Your preference may be different. Both are very good speakers for its size.

I  used to have a much larger listening room in a much larger home, and spent a lot of time with two of the floor standers you mentioned, Maggie 1.6s and Vandersteen 2a signatures, driven by fully modified Counterpoint amp and pre-amp. Six or seven years ago my wife and I downsized to a condo in which I simply haven’t room for a system like that. I  bought a full service integrated amp, with both phono section and dac, and bookshelf speakers. I spent a tremendous amount of time auditioning speakers at regional stores and two AXPONA shows. I settled on a pair Reference 3a MM de Capos, which are time corrected like the Vandersteens. I think they share many qualities with them as well as with the Maggies. Of course, you sacrifice the soundstage, but, with a small sub, they produce a similarly smooth, natural, even believable musical landscape. I encourage you to seek out opportunity to audition them.

I've been down this "large vs small" speaker rabbit hole a number of times. What I learned the hard way is this: if your room really won't support large/full-range speakers (due to dimensional or placement/decorating issues), then do the following:

-- audition medium to large 2-way speakers (all are far smaller than a full range tower speaker), paying special attention to authority in the mid- and upper-bass, as well as the other audio verites of soundstage, midrange density/resolution, treble, etc.

-- Then combine the selected 2-way speakers, ideally stand-mounted, with a pair of subwoofers, equally carefully selected.

The overall cost should be no more than, and possibly somewhat less than, a pair of full-size speakers.

My vote for the authoritative 2-ways would be the ATC SCM19 v2 (ATCs are killer in every way). 

I want to thank everyone again. Travel is starting to shut down again in the Northeast, so I'll likely be putting off my speaker auditions until ?. To make matters worse, my old Bryston amp just lost a channel; that's fine, I've been anticipating buying a new amp to match new speakers, but it means that I'm listening to music lopsided until the covid fog lifts.

I love all the recommendations. Some of these speaker companies I've never heard of, some barely have dealers in the US. I'm excited to get at it.

I will, though, reiterate that my question is not so much about great small speakers but whether folks feel they can be *completely* satisfied with small speakers. I'm not surprised to get answers that are all over the place as I did ask for personal opinions. Some interesting patterns emerge: many suggest some variation on the elusive idea that "small speakers can be fantastic if you don't have the space or budget for floor-standers." But I'm interested in hypothetically bracketing off budget and room; I'm really asking whether stand mounts can be entirely satisfying regardless of room and budget. @prof got at it when he wrote: "Can a stand mounted monitor be satisfying to listen to? Hell yes! Can it be satisfying in the long run as the only speaker to own? Not so sure." I'll repeat that I don't want to buy "better" speakers or "great speakers"; I want to buy a speaker that can reward serious listening, that can transport me. (Again, I realize this is subjective. At the risk of waxing nostalgic, when I would listen to my Maggies, I could feel my blood pressure going down, my body melting, my emotions thoroughly engaged. I want *that* again.)

A number of you have reasonably asked about my room, budget, listening preferences, and so on. Of course I understand that the speaker itself can only take me so far, and that I need to think into the entire system and into the room. One reason that I've wanted to make my question theoretical rather than situational is that I have three possible rooms, all of which present problems ... and we may well be moving in the next few years anyway (most likely downsizing). Suffice it to say that one room is quite small (10x12) in which the speakers would have to go up against glass windows; one is a living room with an "open" design, also with glass windows as a "front wall"; and the third is a monstrous vault of a room, the house's original garage, with 12' ceilings, echos, etc. So in one sense I have options, in another sense those options present some challenges. I've talked over the rooms with some specialists/dealers and I have a sense of room treatments, panels, etc. 

But I'm also a theory guy and I like abstracting from specific situations. I am genuinely interested in whether folks here can be fully satisfied with small speakers regardless of budget or room. I also wouldn't mind narrowing my search to either stand mounts or floor-standing speakers. If, for example, there had been some consensus that floorstanding speakers are necessary to cross the threshold into bliss, then I'd focus on that (and deal with the rooms accordingly); on the other hand, if there was consensus that stand mounts could be a forever speaker, I might lean that way. Mostly, I enjoy the experience and intelligence out here and wanted to pose an existential and admittedly subjective question.

I don't think you'll get a consensus. Could I be fully satisfied with small speakers? Probably not. Could I be fully satisfied with stand mount speakers? Yes. 

Fair enough, djones. Yes, stand mounts, not "small." By the way, D&D are definitely on my list now.

There is a floor stand speaker  I would love to hear and if I had the room and money would give them a try. Kii3 BXT. 

https://almaaudio.com/products/kii-three-bxt-complete-system?variant=29324985040949&currency=USD...

The Totem Arros sound fantastic for their size. If you want better and have the right amplifier, the Totem Model 1 signature and the Mani II's would be a big step up. The mani's will produce a very good low end due to its isobaric double woofer but will need a good powerful amp. 

i would say this thread has covered the waterfront at this point hehehe

the op is either totally pleased with the 477 suggestions for stand mounts ... or completely confused

anyhow, op... good luck on your musical pursuits!!

Let me address your question more directly: yes you can enjoy fully a stand-mounted speaker. While I had doubts  similar to those you expressed, I am completely satisfied with long-term critical listening experiences using the reference 3A speakers mounted the company’s wonderfully whimsical and height adjustable stands. 

There are a some very notable smaller speakers listed by others above that will allow critical listening with or without a subwoofer/s.  You mentioned a Wilson Benesch speaker in your introduction to our query but it's quite expensive.
I took the approach of a 2-way stand mounted speaker from W-B nearly 3 years ago.  The Vertex http://wilson-benesch.com/vertex-stand-mounted-loudspeaker/  in the geometry series.http://wilson-benesch.com/geometry-series/
All the technology (R&D) in a smaller package.  
My electronics are up to the task of critical listening and they never cease to amaze me.  Six months ago I grabbed my subwoofer (JL AudioFathom 112) back from my Son to have a listen.  Let's just say it's staying in my listening room.  
The soundstage is suprizingly enormous and completely realistic.  Keep them on your possibility list!
Happy hunting

@jjss49 , I'm totally pleased! I'm truly appreciative of all the thoughts, recommendations, and insights. I have a literal list next to me (now adding the w-b vertex), and I've emailed Reference 3A about dealers. The hunt is on, at least in the imagination! (Begone, covid!)

I have a question for anyone reading this. Is there a general principle about how much space is desirable behind the listening chair? I'm noodling around with my small room but the chair would likely have to be right up against the back wall. Or, I might ask it this way: with stand mounts, what triangle dimensions would be getting too small, the chair and speakers too close together? Of course it depends on the speakers, etc, but I'm wondering if there's a rule of thumb for near field listening. 

@northman 

you don't want your head up against the back wall, obviously

a couple feet clearance minimum would be best

try some soft heavy cloth wall hangings to absorb...

Thanks, @rockrider! I'm actually now contemplating a route that I simply hadn't thought about before: using my small room as a semi-dedicated listening room.

I'm wondering if the room is big enough. I can ask this elsewhere but do you guys think that a triangle with 7' sides (speakers/chair) would be big enough for stand-mounts? Of course it will depend on the speakers but, in general, is that simply too small for an effective set-up?

Thanks again, everyone.

@northman 

if you haven't read these...

https://www.mapleshadestore.com/upgrades_speakerplacement.php

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/near-field-listening-acquired-taste-or-proper-paradigm.886/

http://grizzlyaudio.blogspot.com/2015/08/hifi-near-field-listening.html

Oh, wow. @jjss49, thank you. That's incredibly helpful. 7' is obviously more than enough by those standards. Dang.

I can't tell you guys what a help this has been, all your advice. I'm on a new path and I'm excited. Now, out with the pandemic and in with some speaker auditions!

My D&Ds are 7' apart and 1' from the front wall. 

I would also recommend ATC monitors.

If you're in the Los Angeles area, contact Tony Minasian (Toninlabs.com) and arrange a listen to his latest effort, the G6 monitor. You'll stop searching right then and there.

All the best,
Nonoise

I guess I have to ask "what is 'critical listening'"? You hook up some Radio Shack speakers. You know they're cheap. So what are you critiquing?

Radio Shack made some surprisingly good speakers and some other ones too :)

They are most noted for having purchased Linaeum so they could use the Linaeum tweeter. The Optimus Pro LX5 got some good comments in the high end audio press. These days they need new woofers and there are good replacements. I picked up a set for $50.00 and replaced the woofers. So when I play them, I'm listening for imaging and depth. However they don't work well in my bedroom system because of the rear0firing information from the tweeters, and I have to have the speakers very near the wall behind them.


I've also been playing with the Radio Shack Minimus 7 speakers for my desktop. They made a variety of versions of this speaker and apparently the early ones are considered the best. However all of them tend to have a brightness due to superposition effects since the woofer isn't rolled off. In addition the capacitor in the tweeter crossover is a non-polar electrolytic. So what people do with this speaker is install a film cap for the tweeter and a choke (about 2.1mH) in series with the woofer, plus a few other parts to smooth out the response. Measured on-axis response is quite flat once this is done, and off-axis response is smooth. So they image quite well and are nicely detailed; if I am doing critical listening, I'm not really thinking about the speakers, although I never play them very loud.


I am using a sub crossed at about 60Hz.

@atmasphere , you're absolutely right and I'm glad you called me out on that. I was looking for a small, inexpensive set of speakers for a second room and I remember the owner of a hi-end stereo store lowering his voice, smiling, and suggesting I head down to Radio Shack. "Great speaker at a great price." I can't remember when that was but maybe 1990? I picked up a pair of wee ones and they served me well until just last year. 

Critical listening is in the mind of the beholder.