@grisly, this thread and the many replies to it left me with a few questions about my own system (which is actually a good thing--to be periodically evaluating your system and possible changes that could be made to setting up the existing components),
so I finally got around to re-reading the manual for my ancient M&K sub to see if I could answer some of my own questions. Which is NOT to say that what applies to my old M&K sub/system applies to other sub/systems.
However, M&K stated emphatically (in bold print) that their subs (at least at the time, which was ’93) have no high pass filter (meaning to me--no crossover).
M&K, at the time, recommended using RCA versus speaker wire connections and stated it would give better bass performance from the sub.
They also explicitly said it was okay to use ’Y’ splitters from the preamp but they also said that "in many cases, the slight improvement this makes in bass quality may be offset by slight degradation of sound quality through the satellite speakers." They go on to say that they do not recommend ’Y’ splitters,, but "feel free to experiment." (As I assume you are presently doing.)
M&K really did seem to like, at the time, the idea of putting a high pass filter between the preamp and the amp and running the RCAs out TO the sub from the HP filter. I suppose that is why I bought one and went that route for a while. However, it should be noted that M&K also manufactured the HP filter they suggested that I use. (I may try it again as a result of this discussion, but if I do I’ll configure things a tiny bit differently--I’ll go balanced from my CDP into preamp, and then I’ll have to go RCAs out of my preamp the rest of the way.)
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@immathewj I plugged in the splitters and rewired the speakers.
The speakers definitely "came forward". The subs seem to have a weaker signal - maybe because it's low level, but I can boost the gain for sure. I will listen now for a couple hours to my usual test CDs and albums
That actually sounds like a good thing to me?
Because you can play with your level adjustments on the subs and the setting of your low pass filters on the subs to see if you can bring more bass out?
Regardless, give it a good period of time to let that new sub break in and everything settle in.
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@immathewj
I will probably go back to high level connections. So far I have mixed feelings about the splitter. I will give it another day of listening and then switch and compare.
Overall, it also gives me perspective that these may not be the best speakers for me and I should go back an integrated amp, start with the latter first. I know a 45 year old amp (Hafler DH-200) will become more pain than fun eventually. I am working around limitations and it feels like I am always coming up short.
Part of it is that I expect more and more and I feel I accomplish less - a purely emotional aspect.
Thanks for all your help, it's fun journey though :) I think the more complex the sound is the more critical we become.
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@mswale , if OP hooked up to both of his subs from amp + to + and - to -, and then he went from his subs to his speakers in the same manner (+ to + and - to -) is there any reason that his subs (or speakers) would be out of phase with each other? That is a serious question; OP did report that he felt that things sounded "thinner."
@immatthewj not always the case. My HT subs are hooked up LFE to my receiver. Only other plug is the wall outlet. When I swapped out my HT receiver, and was doing the room correction. It was telling me my subs are out of phase. Checked the phase switch, both pointing up. Then I flipped one, and they were in phase, but out phase with the front channels. So swapped them the other way, and was good to go. Same went for one of my Dolby Atmos speaker, it's wired internally backwards, been listing to this way for years with out knowing.
You never know, and they need to be tested, it's easy....
Turn on the subs, play some bass...
Then turn your balance to the R, listen, then to the L, listen, back to center.
If the bass is loudest at center they are in phase, if not, they are out of phase.
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@immathewj I ended up with this, it has more (too much) bass for sure but I will play with it, check the phases as advised above and figure out the right settings. It did push me to dislike my amp as it has connection issues, I almost have to hit it with a hammer when I turn it on.
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@grisly, that's interesting. I think that is the one method that has not been suggested by anybody in this thread: L speaker output from amp to L speaker and L speaker to L sub. And then the same for the R side.
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@immathewj
that's exactly what I did, what you described. My diagram is fuzzy, sorry. On to finding a new power amp.
Bob Dylan sounds great so far, M. Ward not so much. Van is next...
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@griz, I didn't find your diagram to be fuzzy.
On to finding a new power amp.
An integrated might be the way to go at this point--particularly if you could find one with a pair of RCA outs in the preamp section for the subs.
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I ended up with this, it has more (too much) bass for sure but I will play with it, check the phases as advised above and figure out the right settings. It did push me to dislike my amp as it has connection issues, I almost have to hit it with a hammer when I turn it on.
Yes, that is what I suggested, it should work just fine, as you want all the power to do to the mains first, then fed the subs.
Now comes the "hard" part, setting up the subs. Would start with both sub gains in the middle, and crossover at the main speaker low cutoff. You don't want both main and sub to be pumping out the same frequency, you want the subs just below the mains to fill, not add to. If you think it's too much, most likely they are in phase. Out of phase it can sound hollow.
On the volume, listen to a good bass song, and try to dial in the sub volume to match the mains. It will MUCH lower then you think. My subs on my HT are set to around 3 o-clock and 60hz XO.
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@immathewj yes you are right. An integrated would do it. If ebay didn't charge an arm and a leg, I would sell my power amp today.
@mswale my subs' dial start at 80Hz so I can't go below that. I agree with you that less is more, I need just subtle bass to extend the image. First it felt like the drummers went mad :)
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@grisly, what are the specs on your mains? Or did you already say how low do they theoretically go, and I missed it?
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"@immathewj yes you are right. An integrated would do it. If ebay didn’t charge an arm and a leg, I would sell my power amp today. "
There are many sites that are better than ebay to buy and sell audio gear including the site that you are now using!
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@yogiboy
Nobody buys what I have on any site other than on ebay. I know, my gear has been posted for close to nothing for 8 months. On ebay I get an offer in 2 days.
Because the stuff is heavy, and ebay charges on the shipping too, I get 60 cents on the dollar. In this case, I would make around $80 if I am lucky.
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@immathewj
what are the specs on your mains?
sorry I am not sure what it means, this the subwoofer
frequency response: 40-160 Hz (-3dB) continuously variable 80-160 Hz crossover
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I was asking about how low your L and R main speakers theoretically go.
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@immatthewj
Frequency response ( 3dB): 40Hz 23kHz
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@immatthewj
Frequency response ( 3dB): 40Hz 23kHz
my subs’ dial start at 80Hz so I can’t go below that.
Hmmm . . . if I am understanding the last sentence correctly, your sub is going from at least as high as 80 hZ and down? And that means that if your mains are actually making it down to 40, there is a lot of overlap. . . .
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@immathewj there is overlap but i don’t think it’s down to 40Hz, the mains have 5” woofers, their lows are flimsy
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This is becoming the most consisting thread.
Your 2 subs start at 80
Your Mains go down to 40.
Why did you get 2 subs in the first place? Your bass is going to be muddy, that is a lot of overlap. Might need to put a low pass filter on the mains like this
low pass filter
But then you would need to rewire the subs. 
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@mswale
I guess you meant "confusing". Yes, I am often confused and I am very good at confusing others.
I had read for years here how a sub makes a difference before I looked into buying a sub. And then I read that one sub is almost meaningless, you need at least two.
My bass isn’t muddy but "reverby" at times.
I don’t mind adding a low pass filter and reconnecting my subs. You linked an 80Hz filter - would it be OK to add a low pass filter for a higher frequency to let my subs go higher, like 100Hz?
I will measure the frequencies of the mains today if I find a decent app.
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@grislybutter Yes, confusing.
Normal sub cutoff is 60-100 hertz, your mains go down to 40, and the lowest your subs can cut is 80, maybe try 100? There maybe a variable lowpass XO out there for you, that way you can dial it in.
One sub can work just fine, usually you add another to balance it out, and fill in the bass holes one sub can create. A lot of that can be cured with sub placement. I have found with 2 subs, that you can great bass, but it can easily overpower the mains, becoming the focal point.
This entire setup is starting to feel like a compromise. As nothing is really working with each other. This has me thinking, does your amp, have a speaker A/B switch? Not sure why no one talked about it. You can just wire the subs to the B connections, then put the low pass filters on the A speaker, both with will get full power.
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@mswale it is a compromise (mainly for the simple reason I had to swear to my wife many times I am done spending money on audio), and 2 steps back 2(3) steps forward process.
This has me thinking, does your amp, have a speaker A/B switch?
No, but one of my ideas was to get a speaker switch. I am interested in this low cost low pass solution, as it should fix the overlap.
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I don’t mind adding a low pass filter and reconnecting my subs.
A high pass filter would actually simplify your subwoofer connection. Speakers would be. You’d need one extra pair of RCA interconnects to go from your preamp into your high pass and then RCAs from low pass to amp. Since you were able to try ’Y’ connectors out of your preamp, I assume you already have enough RCA to reach your subs. But remember, and not to start controversy, the quality of (RCA) interconnect cable (particularly to & from the low pass filter, imo) will make a difference.
I am interested in this low cost low pass solution, as it should fix the overlap.
Not only should this clean up a bit at where your subs and mains overlap, now your amp will be freed up not to be driving the low frequencies from your main speakers. There are pros and cons, but overall I think you may really like a HP filter in your system.
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@mswale
to clarify, the link what you sent is a low pass filter. What I need for my mains is a high pass filter?
high pass
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Assuming you’re a 2 channel guy, get a Wiim Pro Plus streamer (200 dollars) or Wiim pro (150 dollars) streamer...Word on the street is that it’s newer firmware lets you do cleaner bass management (digital domain) and many other good things.
WIIM Streamer Updates
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@grislybutter: I won’t try to speak for @mswale, but a HIGH PASS filter is what I thought he meant, and I certainly screwed up (OOPS!) when I posted above by referring to a HP filter a a LP filter. I edited my post.
You already have an adjustable low pass filter on your subwoofer. The high pass filter is what would edit the frequency of the signal going to your mains.
(So if the high pass filter was set at 80hZ your mains would then only theoretically only try to go down to 80, and then you could start playing with the low pass on your subs from 80 on up, and trying to match the subs with the mains.)
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@immathewj
almost there. Very dumb question (you are used it to by now) does the high pass filter go between amp and main speakers? Or between preamp and amp?
(and I know sub HAS a low pass filter so I just have to connect it to the signal BEFORE low pass filter.)
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@deep_333
Except I don't know what a streamer is. 
I am an "analog guy".
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OOPS again! I think maybe @mswale was talking about replacing the existing low pass filter that is already in your sub? To one that can be adjusted lower than 80 hZ to better match up with the low frequencies of your mains ? (I’ll stay out of it now.)
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almost there. Very dumb question (you are used it to by now) does the high pass filter go between amp and main speakers? Or between preamp and amp?
OOPS for the 3rd time. I didn’t see this. Not a dumb question.
The high pass filter goes in between the preamp and the amp, the connections would be RCA cables. The high pass filter would have RCA outs to go to the subs.
What the highpass filter would do is only allow 80 hZ and up (if that was what it was set at) to go out to your amp. Therefore your mains would only see 80 hZ and up. However, the high pass filter would be sending the full frequency signal to your sub, where your existing low pass filter (which seems only adjustable down to 80 hZ) would regulate where the sub is supposed to start making bass.
However, I have been told, that even with these filters in place, the frequency cross over point is not usually a clean chop off, hence you might still need to play around with the low pass on the subs (from 80 on up).
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@immathewj
Ok so this would only work with the Y splitter - in the preamp - amp scenario?
for the mains - preamp to Y splitter to 100Hz high filter to amp to mains
for the subs - preamp to Y splitter to subs / subs low pass set at 100Hz
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Ok so this would only work with the Y splitter - in the preamp - amp scenario?
As emphatically as possible: NO!!
(Give me a couple of minutes; I'll come back to this.)
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Ok so this would only work with the Y splitter - in the preamp - amp scenario?
Envision it this way: high pass filter INSTEAD of ’Y’ splitters.
FROM the preamp L & R RCA outs
TO the high pass L & R RCA ins
FROM the high pass there will be two sets of RCA outs
one set of RCA outs from high pass will be designated ’sub’ and obviously there will be a set of RCA cables from there to subs. This will be a full frequency signal that will be edited by the sub’s low pass.
The other set of RCA outs will be designated as ’amp’ (or something like that ) and that set of RCAs will go FROM high pass to the amp. It is this set of RCAs that will carry 80 hZ and above (if that is what the high pass is set at).
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@immathewj
this is the high pass filter, I don't see two sets of outputs
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You would need one per speaker! Are you sure that you are not mixing up a high pass filter with a high pass xover?
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thanks @yogiboy that much I figured :)
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LOL, knew I opened up a can-o-worms.
There are of course several ways to do this.....
Using RCA cables, they make filters that attach right to the end of the cable, then go into the amp.
They also make ones that go on the speakers these would go in series with the speaker cable, through the XO, then out to the speakers.
For both options you would need 2 pieces of each. Both are about the same price, with their own pro/con
Yes, you would want a hi-pass filter for the mains, and a low-pass for the subs. Sorry for the confusion
high-pass
Hi-pass RCA
here is some info so you can better understand....
https://gr-research.com/hi-pass-filters/
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@mswale - that ’speaker’ filter does not specify power rating. Judging from the picture it would only work with few watts amp. '250 W RMS', well, we've all seen boomboxes with '1000 Watts' stickers...
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@mswale so the High-pass RCA link is the simplest, it's a plug that has the filter inside? All the signal that comes out of it is above 100Hz? Reading the reviews, it's simple and effective.
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be careful what you wish for 
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@mikhailark do you mean low wattage?
mine is a 100Watts
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@immathewj
this is the high pass filter, I don't see two sets of outputs
@grisly, this is what I was referring to:
high pass filter
The guy who is selling this is calling it a " Passive Electronic Crossover High Pass Filter Subwoofer C", but I just looked at the manual that came with mine, and at the time, M&K was calling it a high pass filter.
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Question to anyone:
Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?
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@grislybutter - the Web page (parts express) says 250W RMS. The wire is pretty thin for 100W, I'd say. Would anyone run that thin wire from amp to speakers? I hope that cap is not electrolytic. Basically, parts quality should not be less than the speaker crossover.
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@thecarpathian
Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?
This was asked before, it puts out the full signal according to my tests and @deep_333
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thanks @immathewj
we were on two different high pass filters, now I get it.
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"@thecarpathian
Does the speaker level output on sub1 put out the full signal or a high pass filtered signal?
This was asked before, it puts out the full signal according to my tests and @deep_333"
And, although already asked and answered, I will add that the manual for my old M&K sub (which I realize does not represent all subs) states explicitly that it does not utilize a high pass filter.
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thanks @immathewj
we were on two different high pass filters, now I get it.
. . . and both of them basically performing the same function.
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yes, and now I know about the impedance but the wattage ... back 1 step
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