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SS versus Tubes

Boy is this an old topic. But everyone seems to approach it from a "ss sucks" or "tubes suck" perspective. And the solid state guys argue the tube guys just like distortion because there is demonstrably more of it with tubes. So, musing on this I got out my ss amp and my tube monos and spent some time figuring out exactly why I preferred tubes (couple of weeks actually). Hopefully this will be taken as a thread trying to explore the differences, not an attempt on my part to put the case for tubes. Here goes.

Playing with the two amps I was struck by the fact that I liked both but how utterly different they were. But to keep this post short, it did finally click for me. In an objective sense (although not objective at all in the minds of the measurement freaks) I could catalogue a longer list of things that were right about the ss amp than I could for the tube amps. Interesting. So why did I like the tubes? The only way I can describe it is this (once again, for brevity).

With the solid state amp, it was a little like watching a special effects movie - I enjoyed listening to the ss amp, and lots of interesting stuff was going on - open fast detailed, dynamic - but I was never once fooled into believing it was real!!!!! (Forget about the rubish about "tube-like" mids on a ss amp. They can be warm and smooth but they are never the same as tubes.)

And that was what was different about the tubes. Unlike the solid state which sounded like a facsimile of the real thing, with the tubes it was like "inside" somewhere in what I was hearing there were sounds that sounded real. With the tube amp I could listen through the distortion and crud and say to myself "I am listening to Ella, right here and right now". That for me is the "goose bumps" moment, and beats a special effects movie any day. I did not need an oscilloscope to tell me the tube amp was more distorted, and NO, I did not like the distortion I could identify. I enjoyed the thrill of "near reality" that was never achieved with the ss amp.

Am I arguing that the tube amp was more accurate at what counts for me? No, because I don't know if that is what causes the effect. If reality is coffee with one sugar, ss amps may be coffee without the sugar, and tubes may be coffee with artificial sweetener. So what makes tubes do that extra thing may well be an additive distortion, and by all objective measurements the ss amp is closer to the real thing. Then again it may be that tubes leave some of the sugar in the coffee. Which of these it might be is interesting, but frankly, just academic if I am to decide which amp stays in my system.

I reckon I go for tubes because I like vocal music that gives the vocalist room to work in. So that midrange has to be magical - just like the real thing is. If I listened to other forms of music more, then I can think of lots of reasons why the ss amp might be preferred.

I am interested in other thoughts from either side of the fence, but please, if all you have to say is "ss sucks" or "tubes suck", please don't - it has already been said and fails to enlighten anyone.
redkiwi
justlisten's avatar
justlisten
489 posts
 
a very insightful post redkiwi, I understand and could not agree with you more. I too have a pair of SS monos and tube monos, and I do like what the SS amps do. to me, its like girls you dated in high school, SS amps are like that perfect girl, well mannered, the one your parents loved. tube amps are like that rough around the edges girl who while not perfect in any sense of the word, was simply more fun to be with tham that perfect girl.

Jtinn, if you are seeking a SS amp you can live with, ive tried a lot, Levinson, Rowland, Muse, Mccormack, etc...the ones that ive held onto are Krell KMA100's. A close second, would be a Symphonic Line rg1.
redkiwi OP
1,092 posts
 
Thanks guys - I hope we hear the ss side too and this post not just be seen as a arguing tubes are better. And Justlisten, I am very pleased to say I married the rough around the edges girl, a nice analogy. Jtinn - I don't think a tube guy can be satisfied with ss, so even if you do buy one, my advice is keep your tube amp - you'll be back!
martice
103 posts
 
Hi guys. I've always read these "tubes vs. SS" threads but never responded. However, it seems that this thread is starting on a good note and although I hope it stays "civil" I would like to add a little to this thread before the craziness starts. In my experiences, I've come to appreciate tubes on more refined music. However, with more commercial music SS tends to shine more than tubes. I agree that vocals, acoustic and classical may generally sound better and benefit from the mid range superiority (IMO)offered by tube equipment. Modern R&B and Rock with their explosive "bottom end" and samples ands riffs all over the place impress most with a powerful SS amp than a "warm & toasty" tube amp. I find that Home Theater sounds much better with SS than tubes and is more cost effective going the SS route as well.

This was not intended to be law just my experiences.
Excellent thread RED!!
gregm
3,404 posts
 
Martice states my case, too -- if I read correctly: tubes have given me the most "euphonic", musically better if you wish, results with acoustic instruments & voice. SS rise to the task with electric/onic instruments.

My down side: still having nightmares from the old times when I used to fire up Jadis -- and blow a tube sky-high; close heart-attacks at every unaccounted for tick / pop, etc., from the times I had problems with my OTL powered active electrostats...
Also, the headaches trying to determine the "best" tube replacement for my system... not to mention the recurring replacement cost.

I loved the tube sound despite, or perhaps because of, the "euphonic" distortion that, to me, sounded more human. So, closer to the musicians -- i.e. the humans making the music. Nevertheless, I am now using SS -- a S-Line, BTW; this amp, to me, does not sound like a tube. It is however reasonably "musical", has good transient attack and, in the long run, allows me to enjoy listening to orchestral music & lieder, and blues. I, for one, will agree with Red above, in that my experience with SS has been a "simulation" of music; with tubes, a simulation of reality.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, mate(s)!
soix
9,409 posts
 
Great topic raised with and(so far) discussed with class. Seems like we all agree IN GENERAL that while SS may be more "accurate" to the source, tubes can make a recording sound more "real." So the underlying source of the issue seems to be in the recording itelf.

Let's think about this for a minute. In the recording studio we take the complex, multi-dimensional sounds from instruments and vocals along with their interactions with the room and between each other and attempt to capture all this information with some microphones. It is then conveyed through God knows how many feet/yards/miles of some kind of cable into some sort of analog or digital recording device. A master is created and millions of copies are then made and distributed.

I think as audiophiles we would all agree that along each link of this chain some of the magic of the original performance is lost, so is it any wonder we look to our components to try to get some of that magic back? Thus the argument for tubes, which I have experienced and thoroughly understand. But, for me, I also have an internal flag that goes up when I sense I'm not getting what went into the microphone--something is being transformed, maybe for the better and maybe not. This is bothersome enough to me(even if it makes something sound more "real") that I'll often take the sterility of solid state over the euphony of tubes, especially on very good recordings, which brings me to my point.

I think the new formats(SACD/DVD-A) are going to serve to blur the lines more between good SS and good tube equipment. The reason I say this is I have heard on my admittedly revealing SS system the 24/96 DAD releases, and the better recordings that were originally done in the hi-rez format have a smooth, soulful, and lifelike quality about them that reminds me of what I found attractive about tubes(and vinyl for that matter) and why I dislike the majority of CDs.

Final point. If we're using tubes to recreate some of the "thereness" and the new formats are more capable of conveying that information from the software side, then might we eventually begin to prefer a more accurate reproduction of the recording rather than an enhanced interpretation of it? Keep in mind these new formats from both a software and hardware perspective are in their infancy and will improve dramatically in the coming years, so as impressive as it may be now(at least the better recordings on the better equipment as it stands) it will only get better from here--much better(remember the early/mid 80s CD recordings?).

My guess is that as these hi-rez formats evolve and improve, so will the electronics evlove with them. So I believe the tube and solid state gear will get closer and closer in their portrayal of the recording because the recordings will provide more of what we're looking for, thus demanding more accuracy and less interpretation. In short, I think the need for the warmer, more bloomy side of the tube world will shrink and many former tube owners will switch to SS--eventually. I also think there is something to the tube magic that may be more accurate and that SS may never capture, so I do think tubes will continue to survive and prosper, but on a smaller scale in the long run. The good news is, whether you choose tubes or SS, the quality of reproduced music is about to improve significantly for all of us.

Anyway, just wanted to add an opinion from a solid state perspective and introduce some food for thought with respect to the future. Thanks again for a great topic.

Tim
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