The lack of basic understanding of networking, hell, even basic physics is somewhere between amusing and appalling.
Digital SQ begins with sample rate and bit depth. For a CD that's 44.1 KHz and 16 bits. 16 bits isn't adequate to avoid detail loss of low level signals, that requires 24 bit depth.
As for Ethernet, as long as the network is cable of sustaining ~1.5 Mbits/sec it is adequate for CD quality Bitstream, 5 Mbits/sec for 'Hi-Res' Bitstream, 100Mbit/sec enables multiple devices to share the network successfully, but nothing more. Wi-Fi or wired makes no difference, nor can it. If external sources cause enough interference to cause buffering or dropouts, that is no more Ethernets fault than blaming your speakers for not playing louder than the jackhammer down the street.
Spend a little time with the 7-Layer OSI model and a basic TCP/IP primer and it will shortly equip you to understand what is real and what is hype.
|
I’m late to the discussion here. However, I thought it was important enough to bring up something obvious regarding the Orbi system.
I am using the Orbi system with a Cat 8 ethernet cable connection to my Gold Note DS-10/ PSU-10 Evo combo.
I was quite satisfied with what I was getting and then it struck me that what I was hearing was only as good as what was being transmitted from the Orbi router to the Orbi satellite.
I was still using the cheap Cat 5 cable that was included between the cable modem and Orbi router!
I swapped to Cat 8 cable between the modem and Orbi router.
The result was a jaw dropping change in sound quality in every respect. |
@rsf507
I used iFi power supplies. They have two different models to match most various voltage and amperage requirements for streamers, DACs, modems and routers. iFi is relatively affordable, which makes it a perfect to start to see if you hear a difference compared to your streamer's wifi card. If you do try a low noise power supply with your modem and router, I'd be interested whether the difference was obvious (or worth the cost) in your system.
Just as a side note, I suspect that a reclocker and power supply / power cable upgrade should be prioritized over power supplies for the modem and router. iFi also makes a few reclockers in case you haven't tried one. I suspect that a Node 2i, for example, would benefit from a reclocker; but I also suspect that most Node owners don't run a reclocker. |
@classdstreamer what low noise power supply did you add to your modem/router? |
Hans and Darko are two audiophile YouTubers who both prioritize digital audio. They both agree that what comes before the DAC makes a difference. In this video Hans mentions that galvonic isolation and reclocking, although helpful, are insufficient to fix all noise. https://youtu.be/d9RSLHOFOTcAnother commenter posted a relevant Darko video earlier, so I won't repeat that one here. In my experience, treating a modem and router as part of the source has been useful, and I can say that adding low noise power supplies to my modem and router made an obvious improvement for me. This, in my view, the convenience of wifi comes at a cost. I wonder how many different philosophies underlie the various views expressed in this thread in answering the question wifi vs wired for SQ. Here's my attempt to articulate them: 1. Nothing upstream from a quality DAC matters for SQ. 2. Nothing upstream from a quality streamer (or reclocker) matters for SQ. 3. WiFi can sound identical to wired when the WiFi card is well implemented. 4. Noise is introduced in all sorts of ways upstream, and the tools we have to remove noise can be used farther upstream than a streamer with clear improvements to SQ. |
+1 to the posts by @darkstar and @electroslacker
You can also specify priority length of time for when you want to switch between say your audio to the TV etc. Depending on which gear you are using, those settings may be available via a phone based App. |
Good routers let you prioritize service to specific devices. I was having weird dropouts until my daughter found a "Max Connections" settings deep down in the LinkSys router configuration that was set by default to 12. Upped it to 50 and everything is solid. |
There are so many ways to slice and dice streaming. Wired is best, but a solid wifi mesh is excellent. Orbi works well. I run ethernet Cat7 out of the Orbi.Streamer is Ultrarendu from Small Green Computer. Uses Roon/Tidal/Qobuz and my ripped CDs. I run ethernet from Orbi into an EtherRegen custom ethernet switch. It really improves the sound. Then connect Ultrarendu to switch. UpTone audio sells the custom switch and great power supplies. |
Yes. Don't believe your lyin' ears! |
Anyone believing they're getting "better" or "clearer" SQ from wired vs wireless ethernet (or vice versa) has fallen into one of those confirmation bias traps we humans are prone to falling into.
Empirically and physically THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in the final correct and intended data received by an ethernet network endpoint, whether wired or wireless. IT's IDENTICAL if the associated networks are performant. Read @cakyol's replies above then read up on tcp/ip, application protocols and the OSI network stack model.
ps: and all those snake-oil peddlers of "audiophile" network gear? Best-case is they don't understand ethernet network science, and are running their businesses for the usual reasons. Worst-case is they do understand ethernet network science - and are running their businesses for the usual reasons + engaging it with less-than-honest intent.
|
I'll second larry's notion on CAT6. I have a new Node2i that I started with wifi. The setup was a challenge. For networking reasons, I moved my router from another floor to the stereo cabinet in my lair. When I hooked up the provided ethernet cable, I was impressed with a lower noise floor, etc. And there was no setup.
Upgraded to AQ Pearl and am like a pig in mud.
|
If you are going to stream hard wire using CAT6. Otherwise you will get signal breakup.
|
I just ran a test the other day.
My DSL modem can be connected with an ethernet cable, or switched on to run WiFi.
I made two video files downloaded from the internet.
The WiFi was not as precise and clear. The copper wire download was clear and the sound was better. But, you should get better quality ethernet cabling for the best sound.
|
There's the rub. What worked yesterday doesn't work today. Technology outstripping software and hardware. Makes one want to hide and not go outside. Wait a minute...
|
In my opinion:
Wired vs. wireless is just a matter of convenience and network connectivity and not SQ. My Netgear router/wap is a nice strong solid connection to my streaming Macbook. I do have the Netgear plugged into an Isotek power strip just because I could so that might help with the electrical stuff.
As far a a streamer, I had an Altair but went back to the Macbook, again for its convenience and flexibility. I use the Toslink to connect the Mac to the Dac so they are electrically decoupled.
I stream Spotify but bitperfect since I use Amarra SQ+ and I get to play around with its EQ and audio conditioning filters. It is pretty wild to see how much garbage the AC filters out. It sounds like computerized garble. |
MartinLogan has an incredible deal on their Forte Amplifier/Streamer. $249.99 via their website. Nice interim solution before you move up to your ultimate unit.
|
Wifi is more than adequately fast for even the highest sampled digital music, unless you have an ancient AP router older than about 6 years. |
|
Wired is twice as fast as wireless. That should be the deciding factor.
No, it isn’t. What you need for typical CD is 1.4Mbit/s while WiFi delivers 54Mbit/s. Streaming services most of the time use lossy compression so it will never sound as good as original CD. AFAIK Tidal HiFi supports lossless streaming at 1.4Mbit/s rate (same as CD), but it costs more. |
|
Wired is twice as fast as wireless. That should be the deciding factor. It's bound to work better. I know a stereo/hi-fi dealer who now uses a streaming service to demo his gear. I asked him to demo some speakers sing a particular album I had at home. He called it up on the streaming service. I didn't sound like the same album! These were very pricey speakers. I've never heard a streaming service that sounded as good as a CD of the "same" material. It hope it works beautifully for you. |
I've run a number of devices including Bluesound Node 2 streamers over wireless using an inexpensive access point in my living room and configuring an inexpensive router as a repeater using DD-WRT in my bedroom, which is the farthest point from my router. All worked great. Until I got my TEAC NT-505. I had all kinds of problems getting it to stay on my network. I finally ran an ethernet cable to it and it has been rock solid ever since. So the device you're using may matter. I'm super happy with the NT-505 (now) and would recommend it. But you should probably run a wire to it.
As mentioned throughout the thread, wireless introduces a lot of variables. If wireless works, great. If it's easy to run a wire, then do that and take all those variables out of the equation. |
|
We live within a half mile of a major area hospital, which generally means a T3 level service...now, who knows, who cares...*L*
Our net service is spectacular....wired locally, so our wireless within is great.
Just 'stupid lucky', I guess. *S*
Back in Houston, we lived about the same distance from a major software company, also T3 when it was rare. We'd get calls about cable service; the one's that Knew what we had wished us well. Those that didn't got told to 'go ask your sup what a T3 line Is' and get back to us'. *click*
They never did.
Got spoiled disgusting. Entire complex had a LAN created by the management (a real geek); some tenants were early 'day traders' (you could tell the good ones by their car), some 24/7 'gamers' that slept on the floor, only there for the low latency.
Had a Fantastic trove of music files...10K+, pick your genre'.
It got busted. A third of the tenants moved....*sigh*
We did as well later, but for different reasons....
|
@mlsstl, future proofing is a good point to bring up and one I really wasn't thinking about.
|
Also, with higher frequencies (at 5G) , your signal degrades quicker so distance becomes more of an issue. This is laws of physics and you just have to live with it.
This and the fact that higher frequencies penetrate walls poorly prevent interference from outside. In addition on 2.4GHz band each channel is 3.5 channel wide, so in reality there are only 3 to 4 completely independent channels. My microwave was on one of them causing dropouts, neighbor on another etc. I've never had dropout, since I switched to 5GHz (less traffic, more channels etc). With WiFi I don't have to worry about anything on computer side. Receiver (Airport Express) has small jitter on digital output, but it is suppressed by the DAC (Benchmark DAC3). |
Cakyol
That is true however I have seen some network switch product white papers that claim network Wire noise can make its way Into the signal from streamer to dac where it might have an effect on jitter that might be heard in some cases. The switch is advertised for audio applications to address that.
That is definitely not an issue with wireless connections. |
In this thread, I have read some references being made to "noise" in the PSUs and/or wifi signals. This is completely irrelevant. The wifi signals (and hence the audio signals in the data packets) are carried in a digitized way and the PSU noise of the wifi and/or wired AP has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the quality of the analog signal you will achieve after it has passed thru your DAC.
Any AP noise issues will be automatically taken care of by re transmissions and CRC checks and error correction algorithms.
|
Mahler123 is right.
Both wired & wireless will work excellent as long as they are working within their limits. The chances of wireless dropping packets and causing re transmissions are a bit higher than wired, especially if a lot of wifi devices are sharing the same band. Moving to the 11ac at 5G bandwidth may reduce those issues, unless you live near an airport or anywhere where radar signals are present. This may cause the AP to change bands continuously (DFS). Also, with higher frequencies (at 5G) , your signal degrades quicker so distance becomes more of an issue. This is laws of physics and you just have to live with it.
99.999 % of the time, both will be fine :-) It is really a choice of convenience. |
Agree with many of the above who point to implementation. I also believe there is no absolute and x is "always" better. Nice little video on the subject matter (and the Aries G1 streamer by Auralic) by a reputable reviewer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqd8UXCGU0s |
Two comments.
First, @guy-incognito, regarding how much sense it makes to install better cable than your ISP service speed needs, keep in mind that upgrades do happen. I recently went from 100Mb internet to gigabit and had to replace two runs of old Cat-5 (not Cat-5e) cable in order to get the new speed at my desktop. If I hadn’t been quite as cheap with the cable back when I got 12 Mb DSL, I could have saved myself some work this time around.
(Of course, I started at 300 baud in roughly 1980, so that’s been quite a change in connection speed over the years.)
Second, @snowbuffalo, crosstalk in ethernet cables has nothing to do with crosstalk in stereo separation. Ethernet cables have 4 pairs of cable inside them and they are talking about the interference between those pairs (crosstalk). There is no stereo separation in a digital signal until it is decoded in the DAC. Only then can you have a stereo separation problem. Cat-5e cable can do gigabit speeds without problem, though Cat-6 might be better for long runs or a particularly noisy EMF environment.
|
@snowbuffalo I used iFi power supplies on my modem and router. I recommend them. If you do try a low noise PS for you modem/router, I'm Interested to hear whether they make a difference for you. |
If you can always go wired. It is just the way wireless works that makes it inferior. Main point is that wireless data transfer drops off as the distance from the router increases. Wireless is also susceptible to all the other electrical signals in the building. Take a Bluetooth connected device as soon as I turn on my microwave the connection drops. If you are playing a high res file and don’t want any compression go wired. For my player I just use my MacBook Pro into a usb decraper Into an external dac. It works great, qobuz sounds amazing with my setup. Yes my MacBook is cat7 connected. |
I initially used WiFi. When I ran a hard wire, the sound was a bit stronger. |
Not every wi fi component is a snap to get on the WiFi system...with wired you don’t have that issue. I also think a wired connection is less prone to dropouts when you have competing WiFi devices , like refrigerators, etc. gobbling up the available bandwidth.
|
" it makes no sense to run ethernet cable in your home that is rated higher than the cable used for your incoming service."
Wish I'd thought of this obvious fact before buying a fancy ethernet cable. Oh, well. Surely it's doing no harm (?)
Hopefully one day your service will catch up.I'm 100% in favour of wired.No chance of interruption with other signals. The cable lifters are a nice touch though. |
+1 for Mesh wireless router/node |
In my experience, wired has always sounded better, except for one product, the Auralic Aries Mini. There is however a fundamental flaw with wired Ethernet, it acts like a long aerial that, in addition to passing your data, picks up RFI/EMI from your local environment. In my opinion a good RFI filter is essential. The ENO by Network Acoustics is cheap and transforms the listening experience. Link to their site here https://networkacoustics.com/ |
Most equipment manufacturers will advise to use a wired connection if the device can do both and you have a choice between the two. Everything being equal, the best a wireless connection can do is be as good as the wired connection. It will not be better. If that’s the case, the wireless is definitely more convenient. Keep in mind that the wired connection will always be more robust. |
ALWAYS is a strong word
applied to wifi vs ethernet - it is also incorrect
it depends on the situation, quality of feed into and out of the network, etc etc |
The wi-fi dongle on my Cambridge CXN V2 streamer caused intermittent noise with my Bel Canto REF500M class D amps, problem was resolved by going wired (which to be fair was "wired" with CAT 6 from a nearby wireless router, just to remove the requirement for the wi-fi dongle). If you do go wired, my understanding is that CAT 6 cable (like what Tuneful Cables makes with AudioQuest stock) is made to higher standards for crosstalk than generic CAT 5.
@classdstreamer what aftermarket "low noise power supply" would you recommend? I have an Orbi mesh setup with wall wart power supplies. |
Is it just me or does anyone else think it’s crazy that or streamers receive data signals either wired (with basic 10 cent a foot cable) or wireless but are then told that we need expensive after market Ethernet cables as interconnects? |
"it makes no sense to run ethernet cable in your home that is rated higher than the cable used for your incoming service."
Wish I'd thought of this obvious fact before buying a fancy ethernet cable. Oh, well. Surely it's doing no harm (?) |
@erik_squires if you'd like to go wired, try running mesh router system. And throw a low noise power supply on the satelite router you connect to your stereo. It's worth a shot, and cheaper than a lot of other audiophile purchases. Worse case scenario, you end up upgrading your home network. |
I expected more votes for wired. To you wireless proponents, consider this:
I too didn't hear a difference between wifi and Ethernet until I connected low noise power supplies to the modem and router. It's possible the WiFi card in your streamer is about as electrically noisy as the power bricks for your modem and router. You won't know for certain until you try. |
I've ran my old Squeezebox Touches both wired and wirelessly, and have done the same with my current Raspberry Pi players.
As others have said, as long as the wireless signal strength is good, I find no difference is audio quality nor the responsiveness of the player in starting and controlling music. Wired is a little easier to set up if you are close to the router or switch and can connect with an easily concealed cable, but I have no problem switching to wireless if that means I don't have to run a cable between rooms or leave wiring exposed. Point is, don't waste time worrying about it for audio.
|
Go wires so you can put risers under there too.
Wireless only for me. Works great. |
I have a Note2 and use WiFi and it sounds great. I tried it connected and could tell zero difference. If you have the bandwidth WiFi sound is excellent. |
I have a silly question: would using LNPS's on a modem and main router in a mesh system make a difference if the stereo system is connected to a satellite router via Ethernet? I think the answer is likely 99% to be no. But I feel like the obvious no's change every 10-20 years in this hobby.
I have been playing with home networking over the last year. Wifi 6 and mesh are the emerging standards. However, systems deploying both wifi 6 and mesh are only starting to hit the market.
I picked up a Netgear wifi 6 router a year ago, but traded it out for a Google mesh WiFi system earlier this year. Mesh is the way to go for sure, as every room in my relatively small house has a similar connection. And I also love how simple Google software is compared to traditional router software.
I run the stereo system from the main router, but the home theater is connected to a satellite router. So I won't test my question anytime soon. |
I use WiFi, but if I could use Ethernet I would. The usual issues people have is channel congestion with neighbors. Depends on where you live and who is around you. In an apartment, getting a clear channel can be a weekly time sucker.
In a home on an acre of land, not so much.
|
