Stunned by a cable upgrade

I wouldn't do it that way...

Using your cables to effect a "complementary coloration is rarely a completely succesful way to go. The problem is simple, you are attempting to employ some sort of filter, and a filter can only remove information, never add. So, while you can get the overall sound to be more pleasant, and perhaps easier to listen to, it is rare that this method results in a truly "trancendental" system.

Much better is to work through your system and eliminate components, parts, and gear that is (in effect) causing the problem to begin with. Admittedly, this can be a daunting task, since everything *is* hooked together, and it is very difficult to *know* in advance what is actually "correct" and what is "warped."

IF the cable that was replaced, was replaced by an essentially "transparent" cable, *then* by all means the change is warrented and merited. But, IF this particular brand of cable is known to "smooth" out "bright" systems, then I would urge caution, and tell you all to beware.

My philosophy is to work to find the most transparent, and clean elements for my system, especially the cables, and then IF color is needed, to apply that judiciously and with purpose and control. This, rather than apply multiple colorations in an attempt to arrive back in the "center."
I've found that by striving for clean and transparent first that the ultimate results are far more satisfying and apparent.

This stands for everything, especially amps and speakers. I've never found it possible to make an average speaker or average amp sound any better than average - finding a cable that makes it listenable, is doing only that, making it listenable. Which, is not *all* bad, since listenable is better than not. However, if your system is really "tuned-in" and is really clean and clear, you'll be able to instantly hear the effects of things like a single length of new cable without a moment's hesitation, whereas in a system with "complementary colorations" you'll likely hear a change, but be hard pressed to clearly identify precisely what and where it is coming from or going to.

Of course, getting a system together like the one I suggest takes work and testing, and a bit of effort too...

_-_-bear (email me for my URL)

Sean, what a great cable shoot-out. Very thorough and objective. This is an interesting thread in the sense that it clearly points out how system dependent components can be.

I am currently using AP Oval 9's but without the negative effects that came across in your system. Maybe it's my speakers or the way that they are set up... I was using AQ Midnights on ML CLS's in the "full range" mode. I moved the Midnights to my SW800 subs which are crossed over at 100 Htz with an 18db per octave Butterworth high and low pass slopes. My only comparative reference points with this set up were AQ Argent and DH Q10. In my system the Oval 9's gave me the same positive sound staging effects that Gunbei described, which I why I kept it in my system.

I really wanted to try the Goertz MI2, based on all the good things I heard about them, but was concerned about their high inductance qualities -- reportedly not a good thing with electrostatics. I was also informed that my low output imedance amp (Mesa Baron) would compund this. Any experiences or informed opinions regarding this?

In regards to the bi-wired T14/ single Q10 question... according the DH Labs, Q10 solo is supposed to outperform bi-wired T14 in all areas... YMMV.

Good thread, folks.

I experienced the same when I tried a pair of nordost speaker cables with my ML aerius i. The sound was ear piercing with the nordost. The dealer suggusted transparent and that fixed the problem. I bought a new component, bat vk200 and was not willing to pay the price of the transparent balanced interconnects so I bought analysis plus(rca to balanced) do to my current setup. I am happy with them. My dealer who sold me the transparent cables thinks I should switch everything over to analysis, I'll audition before I do this. I agree cables do make a big difference, but its just like all the other equip., no dealer cares everything.. Good thread.. Pete

FWIW, both my brother and myself are using the Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables in somewhat similar systems. We have exactly the same speakers and preamps. He uses a single run of 8' AP Oval Nine cables. I am using a 4' bi-wire pair. We have different, but similarly power rated, tube amps.

His system has very, very good bass reproduction(quantity and quality). My system is bass shy in comparison but still satisfactory.

Even though there are many similarities to our systems, there also many things that are disimilar, for one, he has a smaller listening room with 8' ceiling, I have a larger room with a cathedral ceiling that is 13' high on the left wall and 9' high on the right wall and a large opening to another room.

Since we live 250 miles apart I have never played with swapping out each others components, but it would be interesting. It is apparent that system synergy, acoustic environment, or both are actively involved in this equation.

Since the AP cables do not hinder excellent bass reproduction in his system, I believe it is IMPERATIVE for potential AP Oval Nine purchasers to audition the cable in their own systems to determine the suitability of this cable.

BOTTOM LINE, I think there are too many variables involved to make a valid general judgement about the bass performance of the AP Oval Nine cables. Even though I do not get the deep bass my brother gets I still love mine.

God bless.

Gunbei: The Goertz worked well for me in that system. I also have other systems that the Goertz did NOT "do its thing" in. As the "shoot-out" that i did shows, you can pretty much EXPECT different results in different systems.

Bear: I agree with you in that it is typically NOT a good thing to try and "filter" or "colour" a system back to neutrality. Then again, with SO many various equipment and cable combo's available, it is sometimes what gets the job done in a "quick & dirty" approach with more than reasonable results. Like anything else though, you can expect trade-offs with anything done in a "less than state of the art" approach.

Jim: The Goertz cables are high ( quite high ) in capacitance per foot. That is why some amps have a hard time with them and require the use of a zobel network at the speaker terminals. They are NOT high in inductance. Given that E-stats are capacitive by their very nature, i would NOT compound their reactance by adding more fuel to the fire and using a capacitive based cable. Take a look at what Nelson Pass wrote at www.PassLabs.com in the "articles" section about speaker cables. Using some E-stat's that he used to run, he found that using a small gauge high inductance type speaker cable worked best with his amp in terms of stability and sound quality. This is a direct contradiction to what Bear states above, but once again, it worked in that specific system.

Wellfed: Your comments are right on the money. As i stated, my results are VERY puzzling to me to say the least. This does not mean that EVERYONE or EVERY SYSTEM will have the same results or personal tastes that i did. I simply wanted to present a different side of the coin so that others are aware of things like this happening. I do have to admit that i was initially pretty "pissed" and kind of felt "taken" or "cheated" since i had gotten such poor results from these cables compared to what MOST others were saying.

As to the differences in bass reproduction between you and your brothers system, i think your room dimensions pretty much say it all. You have a larger room with irregular dimensions. This means you will have a harder time pressurizing that area, especially with an opening that feeds into another room. Since you have the same speakers but with different volumes of room to feed, you would need a greater amount of "piston area" to achieve the same amount of low frequency output in your room compared to what he is getting in his room.

Like the old saying goes "Big room = Big speakers /little room = little speakers". While there are various reasons why this holds true along with more than a few exceptions, i think that you would need to add a sub(s) to your system in order to achieve similar results. Besides that, there may be some SUBTLE differences (compared to the room acoustics) between your amps and what they are capable of doing. Sean
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