Very interesting thread. As I read through these responses, I have to wonder if the original recording mechanism, the record lathe that cuts the master from which the molds are made, is equally subject to modulation induced speed variations. Plowing a new field, so to speak, would seem to take a bit more energy than playing an existing groove. How does the record lathe overcome this? And if it doesn’t, perhaps stylus drag speed variation in the playback system mirrors the speed variation in the recording process........
Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?
Most audiophiles can't seem to believe that a tiny stylus tracking the record groove on a heavy platter could possibly 'slow-down' the rotating speed of a turntable.
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.
RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.
Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE
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- 169 posts total
I started a thread years ago inviting people to upload videos of their turntables with the Timeline. Lots of promises but no one took me up on the challenge. Here is a link to that thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/turntable-speed-accuracy/post?highlight=SME%2Band%2BSutherlan... Here is a link to a video of my SME 30/12A with the Timeline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clwc_c8sVn0 Look for the red laser dash on the edge of the LP cover. It is not perfect, as you can clearly see the quality of the laser dash changes slightly indicating micro speed fluctuations, but it is pretty good. I also made a video using my friend's Technics SP10 Mk3 with the Timeline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haqhT6khqZY Great performance, but when we moved that table into my system and compared its sound to my SME 30/12A using the same arm and cartridge, the SME sounded much more natural and like real music. The belt v. DD debate will go on for a long time. |
’Very interesting thread. As I read through these responses, I have to wonder if the original recording mechanism, the record lathe that cuts the master from which the molds are made, is equally subject to modulation induced speed variations. ’@pickindoug- Phoenixengr addressed that exact issue, just four posts before yours. |
^^^^ up 2 posts @peterayer Peter your findings were very interesting (One table short of a Goldilocks adventure.) Your findings are supported by what Richard said. richardkrebs Still IMO, based on my personal journey, "Stylus Drag" is not an Iceberg Scenario, where most of what is happening is below the surface; where this thread is focused. The table and keeping speed. What is happening above the surface is just as, if not more important in regards to Stylus Drag, since I believe the type of cartridge and tonearm pickup used are worth ........hmmmmm..........let's call it 33.333 % each. 8^0 As we know playing vinyl properly requires good setup between the trio of parts. Cheers Chris |
Peterayer, no big surprise. The 30/12 is an amazing turntable. It's degree of isolation is better than any turntable I am aware of. The V12 is IMHO SME's best tonearm. Have you checked your resonance frequency on a test record? The SME is the lightest 12" tonearm I am aware of. It's effective mass is only 12 gms. The Air Tight is almost as stiff as a Koetsu. My guess is that adding some weight to the head shell might improve your bass a bit. I set mine up for between 8 to 10 Hz. Guys, chakster has a very valid point. Speed variation is just not a problem for modern turntables because we can't hear it. This is just a spec war. Same goes for lathes but they have to be a lot more powerful and stable because the cutting head causes way more drag and variation in drag than a stylus running in a groove. The big problem with both lathes and turntables is noise particularly rumble which is not only very audible but you can see it! Just look at your woofers dancing around wasting amplifier power and Doppler distorting everything else the woofer is doing. All our preamps use to have rumble filters, just high pass filters 3 dB down at 30 Hz. As I have mentioned in previous posts it is not uncommon for a poorly maintained lathe to rumble. I have had several discs that were so annoying I sent them back. The ones I sent back were all 180 gm "Audiophile" pressings and all were Rykodisc. I have many records that rumble a bit but not so bad that I can't listen to them. I have never been bothered by speed variation and none of the audiophiles I know have complained about it. I think that probably only rapid speed changes would be audible but our heavy platters just can't change speed that fast |
- 169 posts total