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Stylus-Drag..Fact or Fiction?

Most audiophiles can't seem to believe that a tiny stylus tracking the record groove on a heavy platter could possibly 'slow-down' the rotating speed of a turntable.
I must admit that proving this 'visually' or scientifically has been somewhat difficult until Sutherland brought out the Timeline.
The Timeline sits over the spindle of the rotating disc and flashes a laser signal at precisely the correct timing for either 33.33rpm or 45rpm.
By projecting these 'flashes' onto a nearby wall (with a marker attached)....one can visualise in real-time, whether the platter is 'speed-perfect' (hitting the mark at every revolution), losing speed (moving to the left of the mark) or gaining speed (moving to the right of the mark).

RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE 
Watch here how the laser hits the mark each revolution until the stylus hits the groove and it instantly starts losing speed (moving to the left).
You can track its movement once it leaves the wall by seeing it on the Copperhead Tonearm.
Watch how it then speeds up when the tonearms are removed one by one....and then again, loses speed as the arms are dropped.

RAVEN BELT-DRIVE TT vs TIMELINE
Watch here how the laser is 'spot-on' each revolution with a single stylus in the groove and then loses speed as each additional stylus is added.
Then observe how....with NO styli in the groove.....the speed increases with each revolution (laser moves to the right) until it 'hits' the mark and then continues moving to the right until it has passed the mark.

Here is the 35 year-old Direct Drive Victor TT-81 turntable (with Bi-Directional Servo Control) undergoing the same examination:-
VICTOR TT-81 DD TT vs TIMELINE 
128x128halcro
phoenixengr's avatar
phoenixengr
92 posts
 
@richardkrebs-

ThinGap does make a different series motor (LS51, same price ~$600 in qty.) with higher pole count (higher driving freq), lower power (48W) and higher winding resistance (4Ω); it is still coreless and would be much better suited for a DD table application the the TG23x series and could be driven from a class AB amp. It’s been available for a couple of years, so I’m not sure why it didn’t get used in this case?

The HW40 gets great press because it does sound good and even measures respectably, but no where near the numbers VPI claims for W&F, speed accuracy or torque. Of all the reviews I’ve read, I don’t believe I saw a single measurement; making matters even more difficult, you need the software from Elmo (you can it download free from their website) and need to construct a serial cable to connect a PC to the controller in order to get some of the relevant measurements. Luckily, the parts are readily available thru Digikey. With the software, you can also do 78 RPM or adjust the tempo for off speed records such as the Stones Beggar's Banquet, in steps of ~0.07%.
mijostyn's avatar
mijostyn
8,526 posts
 
I'm not sure if I have any QRP records but I have quite a few RTI pressings and they are great, certainly up there with the best. 3-6 months behind? So much for the death of vinyl.
Phoenix, it appears David Karmeli does not have a web site. I can find pictures of his tables but nothing on specs and design philosophy. It sure looks like he has out Kuzma'd Frank. That table looks darn massive. I understand it has an air bearing like the Walker? Nothing on price or how to order one. I have never been a fan of direct drive turntables. It seems to be the solution to a problem I do not have. None of my turntables have had speed variations bad enough that I could hear and that includes the LP 12. I instinctively do not like the idea of an oscillating magnetic device under my low output moving coil cartridge. But I can not say that I can hear a problem with that either because I have never had a direct drive table in my system. It seems that most of the reviewers prefer belt driven tables. But then there are many more belt driven tables out there than direct or idler wheel drive. 
phoenixengr's avatar
phoenixengr
92 posts
 
@mijostyn- David hangs out on What’s Best Forum, you can contact him there.

He did an expose on the table in 2015 when it had an earlier motor controller:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-american-sound-turntable-beyonds-minimalist.18161/

One of the first customers with the new controller posted here:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/i-said-i-would-never-buy-another-turntable-argh.23947/


jtimothya
612 posts
 
@mijostyn
...it appears David Karmeli does not have a web site. I can find pictures of his tables but nothing on specs and design philosophy. It sure looks like he has out Kuzma’d Frank. That table looks darn massive. I understand it has an air bearing like the Walker? Nothing on price or how to order one. I have never been a fan of direct drive turntables. It seems to be the solution to a problem I do not have. None of my turntables have had speed variations bad enough that I could hear and that includes the LP 12.

Cost for the AS2000 is into 6-figures with a limited production run.

Gauging a table by audible wow & flutter and believing that not hearing speed variation means there are no problems is to miss out on what the best direct drives (or other high stable accuracy tables) have to offer.

Our ears are far more sensitive to time differences than we realize. Consider two transients, n seconds apart - what would n need to be for a listener to hear them merged as one, a single note? 20/1000th of a second? A string section having multiple performers are not, in virtue of their humanity, in perfect sync. That’s why one hears a harmonic shimmer when they play quickly together. Differentiation in arrival time correlates with perception of distance - exactly what we do in soundstage perception/creation - the timpani are behind the trombones. It’s an ancient skill. Dynamic transients have more initial impact with a more speed accurate table - less blur at the launch edge.

Stable accuracy brings significant sonic improvement to any aspect of music through vinyl playback that involves time or frequency. I urge you to hear for yourself if it makes a difference - listen to a better direct-drive side by side with the belt or idler of your choice.
mikelavigne
2,194 posts
 
ignore the technology and measurements.

i did......or i do every day.

i purchased the Saskia idler to place next to my Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive. both toward to top of the heap for their types. i think my system allows each to flourish. maybe not every system is as flexible.

switching arms and cartridges back and forth it's obvious they are different in a good way, neither is wrong.

the NVS bigger and more organized in the sound stage. the stage edges get expanded. no limit to dynamics. very neutral tonally.

the Saskia has amazing energy, images more holographic and astonishing tonal density. more weight and impact to the bass and it digs deeper in flow and timbre.

both tt's are very good in the areas where the other is outstanding.....and different types of music are better served by each.

love them both.
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