You guys won't give up. MC you have a one track mind!! I don't see any comment in this thread saying you only need one sub. The OP actually has 2.
Then ieales insists on something super complicated, or it's not even good enough for him to discuss (making me wonder why he keeps discussing it).
Since when does a logo and chrome foot (actually mine don't have chrome feet, they are aluminum) have anything to do with the quality of the product?
You two should get together to talk about how right you both are.
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define integrated
Integrated means of one piece, whole. Its a fact. You could look it up. Bass is integrated when its impossible to tell there are subs, or even any speakers at all. Integrated is when the bass is so clean and clear and extended you are enveloped to the point where the walls of the room dissolve and you feel you are within a holographic acoustic space. This is impossible to achieve with any one sub. The more subs you use the easier this becomes. With four or five subs it is trivially easy. Virtually any four subs located virtually anywhere in the room will get you there. No single sub located anywhere will. Not even two. More is better. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367Would be very interested to hear ieales tell us all how many four and five sub setups he has tried, in order to fully evaluate his credibility on the subject. |
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any quality sub can be integrated into a system if setup correctly
define integrated
More ≠ Better. Without multiple slopes, phase, polarity and optimally delay integration will suffer except for a very small subset of mains. IMO, some units are jewelry aimed at the ignorant. From where they were 20 years ago, REL has definitely moved in that direction. Chrome feet w logo. PuLeease! |
You have a point Sounder. Just pointing out cheaper and better options.
Chaz, it’s not fake news. Try listening to a simple acoustic recording then a complicated classical piece and see which seems more detailed.
Tweak, any quality sub can be integrated into a system if setup correctly. |
I don't think OP started this discussion for you guys to come in and bash his system or his choice of equipment, or for you to argue with each other. Really, this forum has become such a slug-fest it's unbelievable! If some of you actually knew as much as you think you know, you could save the world! You even have him believing that you know more than the engineers and designers at REL, who designed these subs!
OP has nice equipment! His choice of Mac is great, and it's not underpowered. 75 tube watts from a Mac is a lot of power. They use excellent transformers and excellent design. They will power those 86db speakers just fine. The RELs are good subs. No, they don't go to 10 Hz, but neither does the music!
Sure, a new amp, 4 big subs (or is it 5 now, MC?), new, more efficient speakers, and tweaky fuses, cones and power cords would make it sound different (not necessarily better). But, that's not what he asked. His question for you guys was whether or not he will see improvement by adding the RELs to his system. He isn't living in an anechoic chamber, and isn't looking for perfect, world class sound, and he isn't building a studio or trying to spend tens of thousands of dollars!
The answer to the question, @ricmci is YES! It will definitely improve things for you, and I think you have already discovered that. IME the RELs are very musical. They integrate very well with your speakers if you take your time in tuning them, and I recommend following the OE instructions to connect using the high inputs. Are they the best available? No. Are they junk? Far from it. In my case, I have Primaluna HP Integrated with Revel F208 speakers and a pair of REL t/9i subs. The SQ is fantastic!
Some of the forum regulars need to grow up. It's like OP came in asking if he should paint the walls blue. And, then this group gets hold of him and tries to convince him blue is wrong, and he should move walls, raise the roof, and move to Colorado where the power grid is more reliable. If he's happy with what he's got, then let him be happy! He is taking a journey, as we all are. Instead of encouraging his walk up the hill, you want him to go to the moon. Sheesh. |
My experience with both Sunfire, Sunfire Signature, and SVS Ultra and Plus is that most subs do not integrate well
Check out GR-Research. He seems to be onto how to make them
hth
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rwwear2,721 posts03-26-2020 7:49pmOf course the RELs sound more detailed because they are producing less music that would otherwise compete with the higher bass frequencies. The less bass a speaker produces the more detailed they seem. By saying you will never play anything with bass around 20hz... Fake news. |
03-26-2020 6:50pmspacial reproduction What exactly do you mean by that? Exactly. The subtle details that make up the recording studio, the reflections of certain notes off the walls or ceiling, the subtleties of a breeze or noise coming from a nearby building that ’frames’ the space of the original scene sonically. Those subtle sounds and noises reproduced in the mid bass and bass are what helps to recreate the original sonice picture. RELs do that with their high level connections, and an adjustment system and filters that help you dial them in so they Blend with your main speakers seamlessly. In my experience RELs help you reproduce the music or soundtracks much better than your mains do by themselves. ...Or you could build your own set of 10 or 15 world class subs from scratch like @millercarbon says he has. ;-) |
Of course the RELs sound more detailed because they are producing less music that would otherwise compete with the higher bass frequencies. The less bass a speaker produces the more detailed they seem. By saying you will never play anything with bass around 20hz you are writing off a lot of great classical, rock, electronic and modern pop such as Dutoit's Planets to the likes of Billie Eilish, King Crimson, Pink Floyd and many others. And as I said earlier, a sub that can reproduce below 20hz can do a much better job of reproducing 40hz.without strain. No decent sub will thump if set up correctly.
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Spacial reproduction has nothing to do with REL, or any particular sub for that matter. Whoever REL has hired for marketing isn't being paid enough. Anyone capable of that degree of mind control ought to be working for CIA or the Fed, its just astounding. Fully expect any day now to be reading REL has cured the common cold, brought peace to the mideast, eliminated dandruff and who knows maybe even cancer. Its just nuts.
Truth is any 4 subs spaced asymmetrically around the room will get you there. My system has 2 sealed, 2 ported, and one powered, and read the comments the bass is incredible, totally integrated, and 3D. This 5 subs completely disappear, the bass is as beautifully imaged as all the rest, and this has been the case no matter where they are moved ever since going from one to 4, and finally 5.
Sorry. Not saying REL doesn't make a good sub. Simply saying REL doesn't make a good enough sub for one to be better than 4. No one does. You want good bass, you get 4. Its that simple. |
spacial reproduction What exactly do you mean by that? |
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There's simply a level of nuance in spacial reproduction that the other's don't match. There is much more to a sub-woofer than going thump really loud at 20 hz. |
There's a reason you see RELs with 2 channel high end systems at the shows.
Better profit margins for the dealers? |
There's a reason you see RELs with 2 channel high end systems at the shows where some of mostest, awfulest sound on the planet is purveyed. IMO, any sub w/o a continuous phase control, polarity invert and multiple slopes is a toy. |
REL is going to reproduce the subtle spacial nuances in both music and home theater in ways that level up your experience and your system as a whole. As Ricred posted earlier, he's had a number of different subs and ended up with dual REL Carbons.
I have another friend who bought a REL Carbon as well and liked it so much he added a 2nd.
There's a reason you see RELs with 2 channel high end systems at the shows. |
ATC SCM19 has a published spec of
Frequency Response (-6dB): 54Hz-22kHz
Even 1000w is never going to get low end from it or any similar 2-way.
Power requirements fall approximately 50% per octave. Using the SCM19 as an example and rolling the bass @ 80Hz requires an amplifier of only 50w vs 200w full range. The smallish woofer is relieved and more easily accomplishes its task as a mid -bass & -range driver. There is no free lunch and no 6" driver is ever going to have the same output at 20Hz or even 40Hz as at 200Hz or 2kHz in any box of reasonable size.
A purpose built sub with 300w RMS peak has double the power necessary for the 20-80Hz range as the 50 for 80-20kHz. Something in the 10-12" range with similar sonics to the mains & properly set up will add musical realism beyond any amount of power.
IMO, unless one has completely separate HT & music systems, one should opt for musical sub[s] |
Thanks Brad, easier said than done. I have often said to myself the same question. I know no one whom participates in these activities so borrowing is not an immediate option. Sure, I could make a local effort and see what is available but that is not who I am. Sure, I could use more power and more efficient speakers. To my ears the sound is quite pleasing. I’m sure I could hook something else up and be hooked. I don’t plan on that until I have to since quite happy with what I have. Just trying to optimize what I have. Wasn’t looking to redo my system. As said earlier, you only know what you know. Knowing more does not necessarily make life less complicated. In this situation, it actually makes it more complicated. Today, I listened to a DMB vinyl box set (1998) I bought for my wife as a present and just loved it with subs on rather than off. I don’t need perfection. Listening to it on my system sounds 99 percent better than anything else I have ever heard. Not saying 99 percent better than what everyone here has. Far from. Just saying 99 percent better than “The best of what’s around”! |
ricred1 I don’t listen to any music that has bass any where near 20hz, let alone below 20hz.
millercarbonThese low frequencies are inherent in the acoustic resonance of large spaces. Huh? You must be hearing things! I suggest you try and measure this "inherent" acoustic resonance. Feel free to report back with your findings. |
These low frequencies are inherent in the acoustic resonance of large spaces. Therefore present in all music that is well recorded in a large space. Nonsense! It’s only present if the material was not filtered, which was often SOP for records. Any or all of the microphone, input channel, mix output, cutter could have been filtered to make the disk more playable. OTOH, some unfiltered large space recording have enough sub-audible low end to put a plate amp sub into thermal shutdown. Adding a 12v 100 or 120mm computer fan run on ≈3.5vdc will keep the amp cool and dramatically extend its life. see http://ielogical.com/assets/WinterBlues/Force_Fan.jpg Airflow is toward plate to force air up the channels. The fan is held in place with the compliant mounting plugs. Even Saving Private Ryan or Telarc 1812 w cannon won’t shake it loose. |
Am I the only one that thinks this system is underpowered? 86dB 1w/1M on a 75W tube amp in a big space does not sound correct to me; I'd pick a good 200W/ch amp and see how that does. I may agree with some of the sub comments, but you don't even have your main speakers set up right yet. You won't know how the speaker really sounds until they are properly powered.
Underpowering speakers is the #1 most detrimental thing you can do to a speaker. Running very long speaker cable runs is another, as those long cables suck all your power away and drastically decrease dampening factor so you get very poor bass performance. so with a 75W amp, you don't have much room for error. Try your speakers on a 1 foot length of 12 gauge OFC and see what happens. Then borrow someone's big amp and try that, using your integrated as a preamp. I bet its night and day.
I work with speakers and amps all the time and I know from the ATC SCM19s i import, putting them on a small amp (say like a modern receiver, Denon, Yamaha, etc) they sound good. Plenty of folks would be happy. Put them on preamp with a big 200W or 300W amp (even if its a new Yamaha or Rotel or NAD -something like that) they sound like a different speaker- amazing! Way more bass, way more dynamics, headroom etc. If I tried that first, I might not add a sub.
Brad
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I appreciate all the responses. It has been a long stretch of working 10 nights. Now got 5 days off. Plan on trying to tune them in as best I can the next few days. Should be a good time and am excited to simply enjoy the music more than anything (no music except car radio for the last 10 days). Arghh! Might even try some of the alternative recommendations on connections that others have suggested here. Right now have connected as suggested by REL. I have been following this thread and even though it drifted off topic a few times and got over my head with building crossovers and the such, I appreciate everyone’s insight. Stay well.
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I don’t listen to any music that has bass any where near 20hz, let alone below 20hz. These low frequencies are inherent in the acoustic resonance of large spaces. Therefore present in all music that is well recorded in a large space. Its not "music" in the sense of any particular instrument playing it. Although this is definitely the case with a lot of music. But it is also there in a surprisingly large number of recordings of all kinds of music. In other words its not that its not in the music you're listening to. Rest assured it is. Its just that your system is unable to reproduce it. If it were, you would experience it. Specifically, you would experience it as a heightened sense of envelopment, of being in the recording space, as opposed to merely being in your room. No doubt about it. Read the comments. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
It only took this OP a couple of days before he quickly realized the undeniable shortcoming of old school set-it and forget-it subwoofers. Smart guy.
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My only reason for not buying a REL speaker is they don't dive deep enough. Notice I said speaker not sub....My SVS SB2000 can reach below 20Hz, has nothing to do about "hearing" this, its about feel and sustain of musical passages with deep notes.
My main speakers are prolly in the 35Hz range, why get a REL that is at 30Hz range, and pay 30-40% more.
Super pleased at what the SVS does to my 2-channel.....Proper setup is critical. |
- Sorry to the OP and I won't respond again.
I don’t listen to any music that has bass any where near 20hz, let alone below 20hz. "I just know the RELs are twice the money of the SVS subs while getting less." You make your statement as fact, but it’s your opinion. I don’t want to defend REL, because I don’t have a financial interest in them. I submit "we" do a disservice to the audiophile community when we make comments like, "I just know the RELs are twice the money of the SVS subs while getting less." The truth is they’re different and to my ears, SVS just don’t produce different shades of bass. If someone said they required a subwoofer for HT and didn’t want to spend a lot of money I would recommend SVS. If someone said, they want a subwoofer that produces different shades of bass for 2-channel , that improves everything across the audio spectrum, I would recommend REL. If I had to recommend a subwoofer to someone with a dual purpose system combining HT with 2-channel and price isn’t a concern I recommend JL Audio. |
Actually, the SVS 16s that you recommend start at $2000 each. The question from OP wasn't about which sub to choose. It was how to make the best use of RELs, which he bought. That said, the T/7i that he bought currently retails at $900.
Bringing the discussion back to OP, in my experience, the RELs are good for stereo. I'm happy with mine, and honestly think that since adding dual REL subs, by system is better balanced at all FR and sounds better than it ever has. We'd like to hear what you think after you get it all tuned in.
I will also say I"m a big fan of SVS. My father asked me to help with his HT setup, and we got him a full set of SVS Ultra speakers and a pair of SVS 2000 subwoofers. His system sounds fantastic, too. For HT. |
Okay. I have 30 years in the business of selling and installing systems and tuning them for many satisfied customers. I never intended to insult you Ric. I'm sure your system sounds good. I just know the RELs are twice the money of the SVS subs while getting less. If a sub can produce high quality bass below 20hz it has a much better chance of producing high quality 40hz bass.
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I think after 30 years of experience and actually owning several subwoofers qualifies me as educated. Again, there are no absolutes in Audio, only preferences. So, I’ll continue to provide my opinion based on actual listening, but I won’t try to insult anyone that disagrees with me.
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No. I haven't heard them in my system but I've heard them in systems I'm well aware of. Setup is the key to making a sub work without thumping. The REL subs are decent but overpriced for less in many educated opinions.
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The SVS subs are half the price of the RELs. And that's just one example.
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rwwear,
"The REL's just aren't real subs IMO. They don't even go down to 20hz. I have a friend with a pair of the REL Carbons. Even he acknowledges they don't perform like mine. I personally own Velodyne DD15s and I love them but would go for the SVS 16's if I needed a replacement. But you are right about personal preference Ric."
Have you ever heard SVS 16's or a REL in your system?
We have different opinions about what's a real sub. I've owned SVS, HSU, Martin Logan, JL Audio, and now REL. REL subwoofers don't thump like some subwoofers. In my system they provide different shades of bass and improve sound across the entire audio spectrum. In my opinion REL subs are very special with 2-channel, but they aren't the kind of subs that standout.
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Good advice to OP. Spend an extra $3k to accommodate one album you don’t have. |
Listen to My Compensation by Laurie Anderson and you will change your mind.
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For 99% of music, you don’t need to go below 20hz. Home theater is a completely different thing. REL is great for music. |
The REL's just aren't real subs IMO. They don't even go down to 20hz. I have a friend with a pair of the REL Carbons. Even he acknowledges they don't perform like mine. I personally own Velodyne DD15s and I love them but would go for the SVS 16's if I needed a replacement. But you are right about personal preference Ric.
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Bottom line, watch the REL videos on how to tune, and follow what's on there web site. You'll adjust them differently than you expect, and the SQ will definitely satisfy!
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I have a large room too. It's not as large as yours, but larger than many. Anyway, I have a pair of T/9i and Revel F208 mains. I got a T/9i, but in the large room, it wasn't enough. So, I changed to one R528 (moved from the HT room). The R528 was good, but I really felt that 2 subs would be better. I decided to put the R528 back in the HT, added a second T/9i to the stereo setup, and now I have spent some time with it.
My advice is to use the high level inputs as described in the REL manuals. I have the mains plugged into the 4 ohm tap on my Primaluna HP Integrated, and the RELs are connected as stereo (see REL setup instructions) using the 8 ohm taps. This is the way REL recommends, if you read up on their installation instructions from their web site, or in the manual.
Once it was all connected, I spent some time tuning everything. Then listened. And tuned some more. And listened. After doing this for a few days with a variety of music, I have it dialed in. At first, I thought it would be better to crossover at a low freq, but then I found that it worked better if I raised the crossover, which is what the manual recommends. I also found that it was better with the volume levels set higher than I expected.
Overall, the sound has improved for all frequencies. Everything smoothed out, and the system sounds better than ever. The subs energize the room, but are not boomy, and they don't overpower the main speakers.
IMO, the T/7i may not have enough power for your room. But, then again, I don't think you need to jump to major subs, like 18 or 21 inches, as some suggested... unless you want hip-hop bass.
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rwwear,
"The SVS 16s are much better than the RELs for half the money."
There are no absolutes in Audio, only preferences. I've owned the SVS 15 and SVS 16. I currently own REL Carbon Limited subs. I would never own SVS subs for 2-channel again. |
The SVS 16s are much better than the RELs for half the money.
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For me it's the extra bass "range" that my subs provide as my main speakers have very balanced bass to their obvious limits (about 58hz)...the subs just make it all more believable. |
See if it is possible to try the subs before you purchase or it you are able to return if you chose to do so. Feeling like you're missing something is likely to be exactly what will keep you in this hobby and chasing that sound forever. I think most of us are always trying to reach another plateau which we think will be better. I think once you get to the point where you feel no further improvement is possible and you stop even exploring the possibility, you have lost what most makes this a hobby- your interest, like adding more horsepower, etc. to you sports car, in making it better. Try the subs and judge for yourself -it's what makes this whole thing fun. |
Probably not what you want to hear but I think you should get properly sized stereo speakers for your room. Start there. It sounds like your current speakers are not up to the scale of your room.
Next, find the right location for those speaker and then treat the room. I don’t mean use crazy amounts of acoustical treatment. You can do a lot with very simple choices you make with existing furniture/art placement. One compromise my wife makes is we have no glazed picture frames in the living room. All the art on the wall is sculptural or framed oil paintings...some framed textile art. We have a 9x12 Persian rug and carefully placed furnishings.
It does not look like a listening room and isn’t perfect. But I get slamming bass and holographic soundstage in my listening position. No need for a sub.
I own two subs that are put away. Same issue: constant adjusting of the bass levels. In fact the imaging improved without them. My stereo amp doesn’t need to compete with the powered subwoofer’s transformer.
When you dial the main speakers in...then dial the subs into the mix.
I can’t imagine that a single 10-12” sub wouldn’t suffice for a room of your size. But I tend want subwoofers to just ‘fill in’ what’s missing. Some people like room shaking bass.
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I started my REL experience a while back with a used (200 bucks) Q150e 10" 150 watt little gem that works perfectly. I'm big on the "high level" Speakon connection as long runs of RCAs is just silly to me...balanced if available would be fine as is the wireless feature on new subs, but otherwise I simply made my REL cables from Canare Star Quad and it works swimmingly. My second used REL came along a couple of years later as a Q108MKII 100 watt 8". Also 200 bucks, also perfect. I'm in the "2 subs or more" crowd as it just makes bass seem more balanced and effortless...however, if one sub is all you can do, do it. Running the main speakers full range also sounds best to me, and since they're very efficient my main amp doesn't need any help with crossovers limiting its bass...I dial in the best sound from the main speakers and then roll in the subs to where they just sound right. Note my room sounds like a room, the room tuning consists of furniture, a rug, and a high sloping ceiling. No deleterious reflections or bass boom issues in my sweet spot. I turn the RELs up and down a little from time to time relative to the recording and very rarely use a Schiit Loki EQ...works for me. |
Simply visit their website and they have a page where you can enter the data of your room size and speakers and they will match you with the perfect sub Nonsense! Limited speaker brands, model choices and room parameters. An utter waste of time! Some of the most egregious sonic travesties experienced have included REL subs in dealer show rooms. 20 years ago REL were tops and they still make some very good subs today. Others are price point pathetics. |
I highly recommend REL and have owned several over the years. Simply visit their website and they have a page where you can enter the data of your room size and speakers and they will match you with the perfect sub. You absolutely will benefit from the addition of the sub in your system.
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A simple 6db/oct XO HiPass is easy to make. See http://www.ielogical.com/assets/Audio/PassiveXO1.png for a picture The circuit is just a Y with the appropriate cap in the main amp line. Fc = 1/(2 π R C) where R is Ω and C is in F. 10nF is 0.000,000,010F R is amp input impedance See
http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRhikeisan.htmAs a general rule for small 2 ways, ½ to an octave above the claimed -3db point is a good rule of thumb. e.g. for 60Hz speaker, 85 to 120Hz. 85Hz is not exactly ½ octave, but close enough. Use good caps. Teflon or Polypropylene or Polystyrene. Avoid mylar and worse. |
Also, speaker level inputs are only for someone who does not have another preamp output to use. My solution for this problem is to get an electronic crossover. Speaker level inputs are a cost saving way out until you can afford the crossover. |
Ric, welcome to the world of subwoofers.
If you notice the woofer booming on certain albums the level is too high. turn it down just a little at a time. There are two parts to this, the sound and the impact. I use two types of music to evaluate subwoofers. A solo acoustic bass (Dave Holland Not for Nothing) and a drum solo (Grateful Dead Infrared Roses.) I use the bass to adjust levels and the drum solo to adjust phase. To start get a tape measure. You want to place your speakers on a radius from the listening position. The two subs should be between the satellites right up against the wall. With front firing woofers I will turn them facing each other so that the side of the driver is right up against the wall. The satellites are just lateral to the subs at the same distance from the listening position again on the arc of a circle. This is a good starting place. Check your levels again. This may take several days of listening to get right. Then play your drum solo and listen (or feel) to the impact of the bass drum. Move the satellites back and forth, towards and away from the listening position until you get the most impact.
If you are not using a two way crossover (running your satellites full range) keep your crossover low like 60 Hz. Unfortunately this eliminates 1/2 the benefit of using subwoofers. To get the most out of them you need a dedicated two way electronic crossover between your preamp, amplifier and subwoofers. JL Audio makes one. This roll of the satellites, lowers distortion and increases the system's head room (goes louder!) In this case you can take your cross over up higher like 100 -125 Hz.
Ultimately you would have digital bass management like the Anthem and Trinnov units use. Then you can put the speakers anywhere you want and the system will correct it.
Always evaluate the sound from your listening position. Bass can change quite dramatically as you move about the room. If you think something sounds off go check it out at the listening position. It may sound fine there.
Done right the subwoofers should disappear. All your speakers should disappear leaving just music. Doing this analog is not easy. Over the years I have lost plenty of hair on this issue. It took me 30 years to get it just right.
As a note, multi subwoofer systems like the Audiokinesis Swarm make setting up a subwoofer system in the analog world much easier as they take phase out of the subject so you only have to worry about levels and crossover points. Phase and time are easily the hardest to get right. |
