This is new territory to me. Current speakers are 2 way with frequency response of 60Hz-20KHz with +/- 2dB. Sensitivity rated as 86dB. Chance to purchase a pair of REL 7 tis. I feel like I am missing something but will have to buy the subs to try out. My basic question is this. Does this purchase sound wise? I know what I am willing to spend but do you think I will notice an appreciable improvement. I know that no one can listen through my ears but this is my first time doing this. Source is 75 watt integrated tube amp, McIntosh MA-2275. Thoughts appreciated. I am leaning towards going forward with the deal but would appreciate some feedback. Room is large and open, 28X38 feet with 9 foot ceilings. Thanks for any feedback.
When we compared a beautifully crafted over $8k model with two DSP subs, its owner sold it the following week. The words this passionate Irishman used to describe it went well beyond junk.
Simply reading the manual it seemed obvious, they clearly aged out when the first set of preamplifier outputs became available.
I often consider sound reinforcement, recording, post production, and on and on, in other words the majority of the audio industry. Only one end of the high end uses that propitiatory high level subwoofer connectivity.
That guy? He now has a full of crap DSP sub with thirteen remote controlled auto and manually adjustable parameters and filters within nine frequency bands from 15-125Hz. Six slightly augmented preset equalizations stored in memory for varying recordings or musical taste. Each setting shares a uniquely designed multi band crossover region that was also capable of closely matching his last two choices of main speakers systems sonic presentations rather than the half hearted idea of matching of a subwoofer to a speaker. Topping it off with really long RS-232 cables to two other crawl tested slave units complimenting his all tube vinyl based system. Big analog fan.
I bought a KEF Kube 10b to use with a pair of LS50s. I had planned to drive them with speaker-level input from an Ayre A7e integrated that has no other provision for a sub. But I learned grounding the Ayre amp with connection to a sub could be disastrous. I might try to return the unused sub to KEF, or use it for HT -- mostly cable TV, and free up a pair of Velodyne HGS-10s to use with the HGS-15s for four sub stereo.
SpeakOn is a connector!! It is a locking connector developed for sound reinforcement. It is overkill for a home subwoofer. It's FanBoy HiFi Jewelry as it serves NO SONIC PURPOSE. RCA, phone plug, banana all work as well.
Since you're such a fan of the pro SpeakOn, pro systems don't drive the low end in PARALLEL with the range above it.
When you have your EE degree, call me back about tracking the amp output.
There's nothing magical about SpeakOn. IMO, they're just a $50 FanBoy addon.
Neutrik's Speakon locking connectors are outstanding, don't claim any magical qualities and don't cost $50 ea. I bought a Neutrik PowerCon connector when I upgraded the AC cable on an isolation transformer a few years ago. It cost about $5 plus shipping.
Speakon plugs lock into place, protect against moisture, and are simply a better idea than RCAs, phone plugs, binding posts, and other archaic hookup items. Note that Neutrik makes possibly the best cannon (balanced) plugs also. I'd be happy if more speaker companies (like ZU has already done) adopted them...guitar phone plugs are another thing that should be banned as they come from the world of early 20th century manual switchboards...I wrestle with these things every day as a musician and pro sound tech, and Speakon plugs are simply a great idea.
My company installed thousands of Neutric XLRs in the 80's & 90's in pro studios. IMO, Switchcraft is a more rugged connector. SS vs pot metal, but a royal PITA to assemble. SC will with stand a road case rolling over it. Neutrik not so much.
All the stage monitors where I produce our shows use SpeakOns. They are a great connector.
For home use, where constant plugging/unplugging is uncommon, the Speakon plug & jack just add another interruption/solder joint/connection to the signal path. Probably no harm for subwoofer use, but I wouldn’t use them with main speakers.
I'm in agreement with the recent posts describing the physical robustness of Neutrik SpeakOn connectors and would add their ease of DIY termination. As a now stunningly unemployed Bass player I have yet to experience a problem with my amplifications SpeakOn connections while still enduring the bane of phone plugs and my lesser peeve, the female IEE power cable termination.
My short experience with using an amplifiers high level output used to source signal to a subwoofer, the audible shortcoming clearly seemed the inclusion of a third input/output between the source and the speaker system and /or the proprietary wire, not the SpeakOn. Wouldn't these various component combinations create a substantial potential of impedance issues?
@m-db,: no, because the input impedance of the high level input on subs allowing that are at an extremely high impedance---the sub is receiving the output signal of the power amp, but none of it's power. Amazing, ay?
HOWEVER, whatever distortion the amp is producing is part of the signal the sub receives. Some listeners don't mind that (in fact, like it), finding the sub(s) to then share the tonality of the power amp with the main speakers. Rythmik's Brian Ding disagrees (though his non-XLR models provide both low level and high level inputs), feeling the low level inputs (non-speaker binding posts) to be cleaner. The beauty of the Rythmiks is that the listener can try both, and use the one he prefers.
The input to the sub is ≈7.7db lower at 20Hz than 60Hz. Blecchh !!
SS amps will exhibit considerably less change, but are NOT immune to LS impedance.
Current which drives the LS is not in phase with the voltage which drives the sub. The sub introduces its own phase errors which is why ALL subs need Continuous Phase and Polarity controls. Without them, unless the sub was engineered for the system, it’s a crap shoot. Mostly crap!
ROLL THE LOW END FROM THE MAINS AND USE THE LOW LEVEL INPUT !!!
@ieales I just love how you cite yourself. Not only do you think you are really smart, you look to yourself to validate how smart you are! Is your real name IE Trump?
Sorry that I do not have anything useful for the op at this time. I am just curious as to how Millercarbon has 5 subs hooked up? What type of connections are used?
Just watched that entire lecture. Wasn't sure if that was Earl Geddes' theory or @ millercarbon's theory? If I have to get a microphone and other equipment to start measuring all of this then I am in trouble. Are there any professionals out there who can be hired whom specialize in this? Not asking specifically for my area but in general. Just like I do something specific for a fee, does this service exist?
I have been using multiple subs in my system for 2 years and learning and improving my set up . Until today after viewing this video I was using a steeper crossover slope . I tried a 6 db per octave and like the result . The one thing that makes my system more flexible is a DSPeaker antimode 2.0 as a sub controller only for the 6 subs . I can control the crossover and volume from a remote control and do a room EQ in the LF domain
Just watched that entire lecture. Wasn't sure if that was Earl Geddes' theory or @ millercarbon's theory? If I have to get a microphone and other equipment to start measuring all of this then I am in trouble. Are there any professionals out there who can be hired whom specialize in this? Not asking specifically for my area but in general. Just like I do something specific for a fee, does this service exist? I believe this guy offers this service and is reputed to be very very good
I think some people in this hobby like to fancy themselves as engineers. They get off on over analyzing everything in their systems. Doesn’t matter really what it sounds like....they just love trying to control parameters to achieve a pre determined outcome. For me, my ears are my guide and sometimes a tape measure. Infrequently I may also consult the owner’s manual!
ieales, thanx for your input. IMHO Neutrik connectors s--k. The plastic used is the cheapest crap they could find. It melts if you hold the soldering iron on the pin too long. A good tech won't make this mistake but still. IMHO the best connectors for home system speaker cables are soldered on spade lugs or pins. I forgot about the input capacitor trick. The old Dahlquist DQ-LP1 used this trick. They gave you a fist full of capacitors. You picked the right ones based on your amps input impedance then matched the low pass filter with the dial on the front. I managed to get a pair of RH Labs woofers sounding pretty good with it. Now with digital bass management it is a different world. Residential subwoofers in general are pretty bad. Most of them have an enclosure designed to be a musical instrument. A proper subwoofer enclosure has to be very heavy and extremely stiff. Put your hand on the sub while playing at 95 dB. That vibration you feel is distortion. With an ideal sub you would feel nothing. This is a very expensive proposition. Not using a high pass filter is just a cheap solution used to pull more people in. I personally would never use subwoofers without a complete two way crossover. You can never match up a sub without one. With a 2 way crossover you at least have a chance. With digital bass/room control you can do it perfectly very time. Unfortunately a large proportion of the audiophile community is digital phobic.
You do not need measuring equipment to set up a subwoofer. Measuring equipment would make the process easier and more precise but you can do it by ear and trial and error. Specially with multiple subs.
Barry Ober aka the “The Sound Doctor”
Barry knows his stuff but he has a different approach. He is a very big proponent of active crossovers. If you are from the school of any extra electronics in the signal path is bad, his method may not be for you. If you subscribe to the thought that a crossover is just another tool in the toolbox and if used properly it can enhance your systems sound, then maybe his approach is for you.
Either way his test/setup CD is probably a worthwhile purchase.
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