Subwoofer: should we even use them at all?

Hi all.
Bo1972 - dynamics is no problem wherever the dd18 is placed. It is a very forceful sub. The trouble is integration, as I am sure everyone here is aware of. If you think the sub is too slow, do the obvious thing, move it up front, closer to the listening position. Works quite well with the DD18. For space reasons this is not so easy for me. James Romeyn (associated with Audiokinesis) suggested, if you have to line it up more towards the wall, turn it to 90 degrees phase. This has worked well in my context, using big bipole speakers.

Dynamics is something totally different than response. This is what is the weakest part of Velodyne.

I like the drive and eq system of the DD18 when I heard it the first time. But still I didn't like the integration.

I have showed this to some Velodyne owners at my home. Then it is easy to understand what a faster resonse does.

This makes a subwoofer go to a different level.

Then you get stealth low freq. I am Always looking for the best. This search never stops. People often ask to me if life is not more difficult to be so demanding. In my view it is not. It is who I am. Doesn't cost a lot of energy, it works just natural.

In audio it needs to be the best, the rest I don't F...care!
That is why people can feel offended. I want the best for my clients as well. I want for them they same level as I want for myself. There is not difference, that is why I think and work for my clients as I do for my self.

Hi Bo1972, as an owner of Velodyne DD18 (original), I think I know where you are coming from. How is the DD18+ by comparison?

Have you ever heard JL Audio, Krell Master Ref Sub or the new Magico QSub? Just curious since it would be fun to hear from someone who has. I certainly have read many good things about JL, but curious if you've heard them how you would compare them with my trust old DD18. Thank you!!

I have heard the DD18 several times. Not the DD18+

I never heard the DD18 reach the stealth speed I have at home. This is my Reference level of timing. So I compare everything with this quality. When it is less, it is fully useless in my world.

A know a few person which I sold cables who own JL subwoofers. You don't see them here a lot in the Netherlands.

I never liked any Krell speaker. It is better just focus on one thing....for them it is amps.

Magico subwoofer is of an extreme price. When there is a demo here in Holland, I will go for a listen.

Shameless tangent!

Marty: I'm interested in your experience with room correction. I also use Rythmiks (two 12" very heavy DIY boxes) in a stereo setup. I'm looking into Dirac for room correction (as my only source is a highly optimized computer), plus an active crossover to high-pass the tube amp and send the bass to the subs. Was wondering what your experience was with active crossovers?

Now, more relevant to the original post: I have small floorstanders (B&W 804S), and adding a sub was a good improvement. I started with a REL Storm III as reinforcement to the low end. Using measurement software/mic and a lot of time, I achieved good integration and I was much happier than without the sub. That REL has one 10" driver.
Then I replaced the REL with two 12" Rythmik subs. Much better! Initially they were also used as reinforcement in the lowest bass. I used Earl Geddes approach: both subs running a summed-up-bass signal, both set up with different crossover pounts, different phase, volume, etc (and different adjustments in the PEQ section) to get a smoother room response. And indeed it was a lot better!

Lately I tried an experiment: high-pass the tube amp (and hence the speakers) thru the crossover built into the plate amp of the Rythmiks, that crosses over at 80 Hz. Subs were kept in the same location (for now), but are now used as stereo and with different settings from before. This gave me a better sound. Better soundstage, imaging. I think the explanation is my speakers, while they can reproduce below 80 Hz, do so with higher distortion. Plus the tube amp must not be too happy to go down there either.
So in my experience subs are a very good thing for music. They do take significant effort and time to get right. And the reasons why they are a good thing aren't only about reaching down deep in the bass, but in some cases relieving the amp and speaker from playing where they are not most comfortable doing.

Cheers!