Symptoms of UN-CLEAN power


When talking about CLEAN POWER, what SYMPTOMS or effects are caused by DIRTY or UN-CLEAN power? 

kraftwerkturbo
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@jerryg123 Thanks Jerry. I have a second Zavfino power cord on the way. I should have prioritized the dedicated line before I went out and spent over a grand on cables, but the first Zavfino cable was such a remarkable change that I could not wait.

Kind of crazy because I have acoustic ceiling in my basement and the panel is only about 40 feet away, so the cost of putting in the dedicated line would have been cheaper than buying the five power cables I installed. Then I could have gone with 20 AMP cables to begin with.

Hopefully- with the circuit I use for my gear having only have a couple of wall sockets along it's path- I hope to find out that it is "clean" enough (using the Entech), that I may just wait until I have another reason to have an electrician to the house before I go that route. 

In hindsight, however, it should have been the first priority for my system setup 11 years ago. 🤔

@goodlistening64 I have a mish-mosh of power cords, My Integrated amplifiers all have 20 amp Zavfino cables OCC. The digital and analog FE units are Zavfino and Signal Cable 15 amp as well as my subwoofers. 

Got my Entech yesterday and it seems to me that this device can only be helpful in communicating your overall home line noise.

I was happy when first testing a non-audio circuit that resulted in minimal noise. That convinced me that previous efforts to clean my power might have been beneficial. I then plugged in the Entech to a get it anywhere power strip in the same circuit and the noise was reduced by 75%. Great!! Now it's time to figure out all the negative affects any power purifying device contributes. 

 

 

LP

 

 

@jerryg123  Good advice, thanks. I should have put a couple of dedicated lines in when I did the basement 10 years ago. Such regret that when my nephew told me he was creating a man-cave, I pretty much forced him into putting in dedicated lines..so much so I paid for one of the lines and sent him a couple of upgraded sockets to have his electrician install. Of course, his electrician was dumbfounded and my nephew (who is not an audiophile) was also incredulous on what I was telling him to do. I plan on using the Entech device to see how clean his dedicated lines are to what circuits I use in my basement.

Great to hear you have not had any surge issues! I told my nephew to plug his equipment straight into the wall and so far (maybe a year) he has not sent me an angry text that his TV was fried. So far, so good. A whole surge suppressor certainly would make me sleep better at night, although I have 5 power cables that need sockets, so I will have to use something to accommodate that reality when the time comes.

One last question, have you found that using a 20 AMP Power cord betters the sound coming from a 20 AMP wall socket/dedicated line, or using a 15 AMP Power cord in a 20 AMP socket is sufficient and sound-wise there is little to no difference?

 

Living in dense apartments in the past gave me an appreciation for my conditioners.  For whatever reason I felt tense and nervous listening without a power conditioner.  I had rearranged my system and forgot the conditioner.  I couldn't understand why I didn't like the sound until it hit me that the Furman was missing.

@jerryg123 I’m planning on getting a dedicated line done either this month or next. Needed to wrap up few system changes first. Almost done. Famous last words LOL

@goodlistening64 PS is not manufacturing wall outlets they buy them from Leviton or Hubble and they are private labeled. Save your money and buy the same stuff on Amazon with out a audio manufacturer name on it. PS in mainly in the regeneration game and is at the lower tier in that category, at least that is what service techs claim. 
 

Big thing is do what makes you sleep better, dedicated lines, conditioning, surge suppression. I chose 2 of theses legs with no conditioning on my amplifiers. If my gear gets fried I have recourse (lol) with the suppressor manufacturer and my homeowners. Knock on wood no issues and when I travel I pull power from all devices in my chain. 

@goodlistening64 

Should of borrowed mine😁

Yeah, I tried it on three sockets on three separate circuits. The one with the biggest difference is the one the AR6 is also plugged into. 100 to 78 on the meter.  Not sure if it’s apples and oranges though. I sure hope I didn’t buy a very expensive circuit breaker!

@goodlistening64 yes I am on a dedicated line for over 20 years in this house. Also have whole house surge suppression. Never once has it triggered. I am also on the same grid as emergency services in our town, have only ever had 2 outages      in 20 years both due to a line cut. 

Surgue suppression is not the same as conditioner that alters the current and can throttle hi draw equipment such as power amplifiers, and or integrated amplifiers.

@curiousjim 

I just ordered an Entech noise analyzer and will provide my results when I get it. Will test the wall outlet and then an outlet on the Panamax I utilize. Have you tried other outlets in your house to see if they all test the same? 

For those that have these used these analyzers, would you please provide helpful input or experiences from your own outlets/gear?

@jerryg123 Are you using a dedicated line? If you are plugging your gear directly into the wall, how are you protecting from outages (no surge protection) that may damage your gear? 

I live in a quasi-urban area and my house is only 11 years old. I have no meter to test how dirty my AC power is..but I do occasionally have outages and so I am assuming if you lose power on your line your gear suffers by shutting off and on in mid-stream. 

My electric line comes in my house underground and I have noticed that in the past few days that the Panamax I use shows 116 Volts and not the typical 120 or 121 Volts - I assume because the ground has been frozen the past couple of days here in the NE. I understand that lower voltage can damage an amplifier as it makes it work harder to maintain the same static power. 

Overall I find this thread confusing. Those that put in dedicated lines swear that it is the best thing one can do to clean up power BEFORE your gear has to deal with it.

Others claim their gear has power supplies that are DESIGNED to clean up dirty AC. Which may be true but finding proof (white paper; article by mfg, etc) of that on a particular amp is not easily accessible. Heck, PS Audio and others  manufacture both Amps and Conditioner's - as well as wall outlets - so it would seem that one scenario is not better than the other in all circumstances.

And then there are the other third of audiophiles who seem to believe that a dedicated line WITH a conditioner is the way to go. So, it would seem I have three (four if I do nothing) options without any one of those choices being the consensus here in this thread. I attribute this to the fact that many audiophiles do not even bother with any of these options and cry audiophile FOUL at wasteful spending on gimmickry; which I find ignorant.

Fairly new territory I suppose, but after upgrading my power cables I was aware that the delivery of electricity is a real driving factor in better sound, which makes sense to a technical geek like myself. But the path forward is murky at best.

@kraftwerkturbo 

So I received the Entech Powerline Noise Analyzer and followed it simple instructions. Plug it into an outlet, set it to where the LCD screen says 100. Then plug it into your Power Conditioner.  Sadly, when I plugged it into my Audience AR6 power conditioner, it went from 100 to 93! ☹️. In a video I saw, it dropped from 100 to .05. 
Not sure about any of this, but I wanted to try the device and see my results.

All the best.

@curiousjim I am just curious if I might have 'dirty power' (and assuming there is - as is often the case in the esoteric world of high fidelity - no measureable real evidence of that dirt). Interested to read what you find out (going from dirty (city) to clean (country "fresh air AND clean power") back to dirty, but with 'cleaner. 

@audphile1 + 10 my Amps are right into the wall no Furman or conditioning at all. HQ power cords are an absolute and help reduce EMI/RFI and Skinning. 

My components are using LessLoss Fire Wire 640X and AL DC Blocks. 

Power Cable C-MARC Classic. Audiophile power cable by LessLoss

Power is power, as long as your components turn on and once a month you wipe your butt, who needs anything more than that?

 

goodlistening64

22 posts

 

@audphile1 Not sure if you are being a wise-guy like your avatar, …

 

yeah that

 

Tell me how the Hurricane Power cord cleaned up your dirty power..(?)

who said anything about AQ Hurricane cleaning power for the amp? My amp is plugged into the wall outlet. It also has a very beefy power supply that filters power and lowers the noise floor. At that point, it is all about delivering power which the solid copper High Current AQ Hurricane does in spades. The design also reduces RF and ground noise. So it is about quality power delivery to the Class A Pass Labs amp. 
 

My source components, preamp, DAC and phono stage are all plugged into the Puritan PSM156 that lowers the noise floor and allows the components to shine. 
Lowered noise floor = darker background, moore details, less harshness, more natural presentation and bigger soundstage. 

@Goodlistening64. I tried the ideas that I’ve read on these forms about power, and then I talked to some professional electrical engineers, and they explained to me why I was wasting my money. I’m not sure what you found about me hand powered conditioners I’ve only owned a audioquest, which did that thing and I currently have a Mcintosh 1500 but that’s only about power management. They tell you that it doesn’t do any kind of conditioning like a PS audio in the manual.

 

which did that thing and I currently have a Mcintosh 1500 but that’s only about power management. They tell you that it doesn’t do any kind of conditioning like a PS audio in the manual.

 

My cable management is atrocious.. I am a victim of. How easy it is to just find what you need on Amazon and it shows up at your house the next day… I’m one of the people that just believe in purchasing a decent cable and it makes no more of a difference, then if you put a coat hanger between Components

@audphile1 Not sure if you are being a wise-guy like your avatar, but you claim that "power is power" is confusing. Evidently, you purchased a 2K Hurricane Power Cord for your Power Amp? So contrary to your remarks, it looks like power handling is a significant financial aspect of your system? Tell me how the Hurricane Power cord cleaned up your dirty power..(?)

 

@raysmtb1 That statement seems to be throwing shade at yourself, since you have a fair sized conditioner that you are seemingly bypassing. Which leads everyone to believe that, at one time, you thought differently than you do today. In any case, your system is nice, but your cable management is atrocious! ;)

@raysmtb1 LOL. Yeah all this talk about clean power is pure craziness. Power is power, as long as your components turn on and once a month you wipe your butt, who needs anything more than that?

I put little pieces of tissue paper on the ends of everyone of my interconnects and power cords. Then once a month I go through and I change them all out and collect all of the dirt that’s in my AC power. It’s kind of like once a month I wipe my systems’ butt.   Makes a huge difference, give it a try…… I feel like I’m really using my head…_

If, A) is to install a dedicated circuit. And, B) is to purchase a conditioner to clean up the AC on the said newly installed circuit, then it would seem to me that, C) is to skip A, and go straight to B. 

I had all of the sound issues listed in above comments plus my house is old with 2 phase, ungrounded circuits. I purchased a fairly inexpensive Panamax conditioner and the previous grounding problems (slight current running on metal faceplates, sounds scary) was eliminated and background RFI noise was eliminated. I did pop for an Amazon upgraded power cord for my amp (about $25) and that seemed to help with some detail nuance. 

We are in the process of remodeling and I plan on a major electrical upgrade. I may spend the extra for a dedicated 20 amp circuit for the listening area.

@kraftwerkturbo it’s hard to tell whether or not your system is affected by the “dirt” in your AC.
There’s a lot to consider including power supplies and even the crap your digital components throw back into your power. Add to that appliances, etc.

Only way to determine if a power conditioner will make a positive difference is to try one. Running your source components into a power conditioner would almost always improve the overall noise floor. Amps are different beasts and I prefer running my amp direct without power conditioner.

I use Puritan PSM156 and it does help in reducing noise floor resulting in quieter background and therefore more details. It does help slightly with my amplifier as well when it comes to reducing noise floor albeit resulting in a slightly less dynamic presentation. So I run my amp direct. 

 

I don’t think I’ve posted to this thread yet. Stop me if you’ve heard this.

I’d start at the meter. Your power company can pull it for you. Are the contacts corroded? What kind of wire runs from that? What is your feed from the street "transformer"? Who are you sharing it with?

What does your main service panel look like? You can pull dedicated lines from it but I’d first check the power coming into it.

I ran a sub panel, once I sorted the main service panel, and took 60 amps for the system, far more than needed, for a big-assed iso transformer. That outputs via 4 gauge to the panel adjacent to the room, from which I’ve pulled a number of dedicated lines, using 10 gauge and Porter Ports. System sound fine.

I listened to it with "dirty power" vs. the iso transformer installed. Didn’t hear much difference. Frankly, the system sounded a little bright at first, but it could have been all the new wire. Or I adjusted to it. I changed cartridges, which made a big difference, but if you are concerned about "clean" power, don’t approach it with after the fact band-aids, sort the basics first, starting with the quality of power coming into your place.

@kraftwerkturbo 

 

1. Breakers for each of the 20amp lines placed in different areas away from each other. Can't hurt if there's space and was a recommendation by other forum members.

2. Siemens was another recommendation, basically just to use higher quality breakers because again, can't hurt.

3. Ran the individual lines when I had a new panel installed because it made it much easier to do at the same time.

Based on this thread, I think most of you would have a heart attack if you saw the power quality in the average studio, and I don't mean the low end ones, I mean the high end ones. It ain't pretty, but they still make great music.

Fatiguing to listen to, glare, maybe muddy under some circumstances, lack of soundstage .I know this is not what you want to hear but when you add a good power conditioner, things will sound so much better! And you’ll know if it’s the right power conditioner, that also applies to power cords. You may want to audition a couple of different brands. Good luck they definitely make a difference. 

I understand what you’re saying now. So basically you are relying on the power supply of each component to "clean-up" the AC before converting it to DC. Does that waveform need cleaning? What about fluctuations in voltage or EMF on the waveform? Can your power supply clean this up as it converts that "dirty" signal to DC? I think you can only know by looking at it on a scope. Why wouldn’t something like EMF carry over? What I do know is that with a balanced power unit in my system it is dead silent. If you want a good explanation I would search for the presentation by Garth Powell, formerly of Furman Power and the developer of the AudioQuest Niagara. Search for his presentation "High End Munchen 2015 - AudioQuest Niagara 7000" on YouTube. I would post the link but I believe A’gon won’t allow it. Watch that and read the white paper from Equi-Tech on balanced power and you tell me if it makes sense.

@falconquest I think pretty much all our equipment actually uses DC (there may be few obscure items, but can't think of one right (a light bulb in an amp? turn table motor?). I assume even tubes are DC. Just that it is first converted from AC. And that certainly includes any digital equipment (including all computers). No actually use AC. So why use dirty, unbalanced and otherwise 'bad' AC, if at the end we only need clean DC? Get the point? 

@christianb5s4 ".. each placed as far away as possible," What is placed as far as possible? the 3 simens breakers? Did you just run 3 new lines to the existing panel and put other breakers in? 

 

Balanced power is not a “cleaner”. It is a design principle that is explained in the Equi-Tech white paper. This is completely irrelevant when it comes to DC current from a storage source. How are you powering equipment with DC? Or did I miss something?

@falconquest I read one time. All AC 'cleaners' deal with the AC side. All my stuff runs off DC. How much of the AC "dirt" is making it into DC (with all the filtering in the conversion process). Or rephrased: how much different does 100% battery DC look compared to DC made from 'cleaned up' or 'dirty' DC. 

And one step further (recently saw the battery pack at my friends PV system): for those spending $100k or $1000k on their system: Why not make a DC system, fed from a simple bank of batteries (like those used for photovoltaik system all over the country). And charge the batteries (with dirty AC or the sun) during OFF times?

 

Just curious/cross my mind: 

a) How bad does power from an inverter sound? 

b) In this contect, how does my generator (say Honday EU3200i, 3200W) sound (I am actually running 2x 2000 to run the roof AC if needed)?

Bright, harsh, shrill. And this was from an all tube  system. Fast forward to Equi Tech and Balanced Power Technologies. Also, in my system power cords do make a difference. Looking to move to the country though. Will report back.

Both my Bryston Bit-15 "Enormous Transformer in a Box" power conditioner (bought because it was on sale and has lots of outlets), and my fabulous sounding Pass XA-25 (among other components) are being used with the supplied heavy duty but NOT "boutique" power cords. I challenge anyone to listen to my gear heap and tell me why I need expensive AC cables. However, nobody can meet this challenge as I’m not letting them near my house, and if I find somebody has snuck in I’ll kick them out. That said, I do have a few large fancy power cables because I like they way they look.

If you use a power conditioner that offers balanced power it will eliminate noisy AC. Just do a search online. One source is the Equi-Tech website. Once you understand what it does you won’t go back.

@kraftwerkturbo 

Why do you ask?

Two houses ago, I bought a good power conditioner because I thought I had bad power. It did some, but. Then I moved to the country and my system opened up like I had just bought a brand new everything! Now I’m back in the city and in the evenings, my system sounds harsh at louder levels. Sax and some electric guitars just drill into my head! So the other day I ordered a Entech Powerline noise analyzer. I haven’t received it yet, but I am interested to see what it does.

1. Excessive brightness 

2. Over pronounced sibilants

3. Strain in the system and the sound doesn’t come out with ease

4. Generally speaking harsher sounding music 

 

these are all symptoms of when my power gets dirty (between 6pm and 9pm)

After 9pm gets better and especially after midnight it sounds phenomenal night and day difference 

Consider that the power being sent to your speakers, is the AC coming from the wall. It gets adjusted by the transformer, rectified, filtered and passed through the output transistors.

Ideally, the filtration inside the components is such that no noise gets through. However, not always the case.

Any junk that makes its way through, gets amplified with everything else and mess up what is being amplified. One of the reasons systems sound better/worse on some days.

And, it will effect the sound as outlined by @steakster 

@jerryg123   Sorry about that.  Thought it was a liitle dig at me.  We've chatted in the past and you know I don't have a problem with you or your views.  No matter how wrong they may be at times.  🤣

@vonhelmholtz  Thanks for that suggestion.  As you can see from my rig, I'm not in the "anti cable" camp.  I just really struggle to understand the value of the high end Power Cable as it defies my common sense.  I'm sure I'm not understanding something and would like to understand.  I get the part about shielding out unwanted interference, but that would only mean all cables need good shielding.  And that would never justify power cables costing tens of thousands of dollars.  

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@bigtwin my answer was directed at the OP. Maybe you should pose your question to Paul M or one of the power unit peddlers. 
 

I only have DC reduction on the digital front end and my phono pre. Otherwise I am pulling my power through my dedicated line to my listening room. DC is the enemy but I do not need a $5000.00 conditioner. Clean juice at my house , no noise, no loud transformers nothing. 
 

Guess you have some issue? 
 

But what I get back are accusations I'm trying to screw up this thread @acman3, or @jerryg123 attempt at humour.  But no one is taking the question on at face value.  I've re posted it as a Tech question and maybe I'll see a fact based answer there.  Cheers.

“It’s a given we are not using lamp cord to power our amps.” 
 

Ummmm if one were to dissect some of these boutique power cords, the nuts and bolts of many of these are nothing more than the aforementioned lamp cords but with a super pretty covering. 

@bigtwin

Call Shunyata and ask for Richard Rodgers. He is quite knowledgeable and might be able to answer your questions. I was a last six foot skeptic, but I gave up on trying to understand and went the empirical route. I should add that I called him with regards to their digital cables and not power products.  Looked at your system..impressive.

@vonhelmholtz Your answer, or non answer to be more correct is exactly why I have asked the question in the first place.  I believe I articulated the question in readable english.  But what I get back are accusations I'm trying to screw up this thread @acman3, or @jerryg123 attempt at humour.  But no one is taking the question on at face value.  I've re posted it as a Tech question and maybe I'll see a fact based answer there.  Cheers.

@bigtwin

Nobody is asking you to be onboard. If you are happy with your system then why spend more money? If you just want to accuse others of being fools, then I guess that nothing can be done.

Well designed power supplies are important, but I have to believe that at the level most of us purchase, that this is a given.

You want to understand equipment and I want to listen to music. So, my approach was to rely upon a few people to assemble my system. One sang the praise of Shunyata power and cables. I believe that it takes a major investment in conditioners/cables to be able to verify, or refute the sonic improvements of this equipment. If you cut corners, then how can you be sure that you have tested the technology. Given this as my approach, I ultimately purchased Shunyata’s top conditioner and cables with the understanding that I could return everything for a full refund. Even better, I was able to use the vendor’s shipping department on items, such as cable and a phono preamp that I didn’t like and they charged me little for shipping. So, I read all of the Shunyata marketing information, had a recommendation from someone I trusted and then listened to the results. Again, I purchase based upon results, but those results are in the real world and not just between my ears.

I am sure the guys at Morrow Cables would like to help you out. 😉