Esteemed Orchestra conductors and old rock concert audiophiles may not belong in the same category. Extremely trained ears versus extremely addled ears. I recognize experience plays an important part of evaluation. However experience can be a two edged sword. Can lead to hardening of opinion (please visit golf club locker room) or recognition that the more you know the more you don't.
The Absurdity of it All
50-60-70 year old ears stating with certainty that what they hear is proof positive of the efficacy of analog, uber-cables, tweaks...name your favorite latest and greatest audio "advancement." How many rock concerts under the bridge? Did we ever wear ear protection with our chain saws? Believe what you will, but hearing degrades with age and use and abuse. To pontificate authority while relying on damaged goods is akin to the 65 year old golfer believing his new $300 putter is going to improve his game. And his game MAY get better, but it is the belief that matters. Everything matters, but the brain matters the most.
223 responses Add your response
Hearing degrades, true enough. But even a 70 year would be able to tell the difference between a live instrument and a recording - even behind a curtain. It's not all about frequency response. In my opinion, microdynamics is more important, the lack of which is a dead giveaway that sound is not coming from a live instrument. |
@perkri What? Tweaks are not something that have to be overcome! Those speakers are going to be shaking a lot. Think I’m going to put something between them and the stand so as they vibrate, they move in such a way as to not fight with themselves. Want as much clarity as possible from them. So edgewound, explain to me where the hurdle is here that needs to be jumped, or overcome? What you describe here is a basis for a solid system. "Tweaks" are outrageously priced, unsubstantiated marketing claims that have little to no benefit on the objective performance of a sound system. |
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@desert38 I ”I can’t tell you what you can hear, but I can hear a difference. Isn’t that what really matters? There is no wrong or right.” That is what should matter, but if you look at what happened in the last 12 months (outside audio) and all the “snake oil” posts, one gets the feeling that, no there is only one legitimate viewpoint, and they will be glad to share with you what that viewpoint is. |
@edgewound Lets check your response. At what point does a rack become snake oil? Are roller blocks, Isoacoustics, Springs snake oil? Power filtration? At what point does it become a "hurdle" and take away from the purity? What about cables? What are "good enough"? At what point do they stop getting better? I'll skip ahead... Better grounding tech? Better outlets? Cable risers? Schumann resonators? Helmholtz resonators? Diffusion panels? Absorption panels At no point to any of these things, or any other tweaks, become a hurdle for your audio experience to have to work around. They do not in any way "mess" with the so called purity of the signal. When people buy these products, they are not using your money. And why do you feel you are superior to all those who use these products and can experience the differences in their systems? Who died and made you the protector of all us "victims"? Not spending your money, if the products don't do what they should, the bulk of these companies will take them back. But you, you know better than all of us, right? Because you have tried all these things, listened for differences. Not better or worse, that is subjective, but differences. If you have tried any of these things, please, enlighten us and share how you arrived at this knowledge that none of us understand. Whack...mole... |
Worser yet..Unproven "Technology" that doesn’t exist through objective means...but keeps magically appearing. Only marketing fluff with no way to prove efficacy by any type of real science or engineering.Your affirmation are only a free belief about something you dont know... My system is 500 bucks ... I bought no tweaks... I created my own homemade devices at no cost and replicate at no cost some very costly one... I even invented one very powerful myself...A mechanical equalizer for the room.... Then i KNOW what could work or not by my listening experiments.... What you call a "tweak " with despise, i never bought them...Not because they dont work or never work... Because it is easy to create your own with basic science and common sense...At low cost or even at NO cost... I called my devices: controls in the three working embeddings dimensions of ANY audio system: mechanical,electrical and acoustical... They are NOT secondary addition tweak to a system they are the main working controls tool of the system.... My system dont need any costly upgrade and compare favorably in the ratio S.Q. /price scale with ANYTHING... It is not the better in the absolute,not at all for sure, i am not a fool....But it is one of the best on earth for 500 bucks probably...I listen music with ZERO frustration.... Then be creative, trust your ears, and dont read too much audio reviews.... And let the pretense of science to the scientist.....Or to the sunday "scientism" skeptic club.... Audio is fun , may cost peanuts, and those who think otherwise are deluded and very loose with their money....I am not.... My best regards with apology for my rant.... But many things must be repeated here.... |
@perkri Why so defensive? Did I touch a raw nerve? I have heard enough BS presentations at CES over the last 30+ years, plus I restore loudspeaker systems/components for that same amount of time, while also being a working musician for 45+ years to know what's good stuff vs. Bullstuff. There are excellent quality interconnect cables from a few bucks a foot, to making one's own for literally pennies a foot. When someone claims some breakthrough in physics for $30K for an 8 foot pair, and offers no engineering data to justify it, PT Barnum is applauding loudly. Hey...spend your money however you like, but the law in advertising such claims should be to prove objectively, first, why such a product(s) are intrinsically worth such outrageous sums. @mahgister You get it. My points exactly. |
One day, a few will clue in to the fact that if all they chase are marketing claims and not real substantiated audible claims, then things will never get better and that they are part of the problem. Maybe some cables make an audible difference, but it will be an actual scientist or engineer that proves it, characterizes it, communicates how to replicate it, why it works, and how to take advantage of it, not the present lot of cable jockies and their wannabee hanger ons. |
One day, a few will clue in to the fact that if all they chase are marketing claims and not real substantiated audible claims,Too simplistic.... I listened some costly tweak product on youtube marketed by a well known company and it is EVIDENT that there is an audible effect.... But not necessarily an effect i would want in my system... Anyway i replicated some of these tweaks AT LOW COST but without the artificiality in the audible effect... My device control was less powerful but more delicate in the musical effect....Then some may produce very real spectacular effect, but not necessarily something i would wanted to pay for...And anyway one could replicate some at peanuts costs.... All tweaks are not equal.... This is not fact only my own experience for sure.... |
Fair!Likewise! @dletch One day, a few will clue in to the fact that if all they chase are marketing claims and not real substantiated audible claims, then things will never get better and that they are part of the problem. Maybe some cables make an audible difference, but it will be an actual scientist or engineer that proves it, characterizes it, communicates how to replicate it, why it works, and how to take advantage of it, not the present lot of cable jockies and their wannabee hanger ons.Most excellent summation. Vaporware is rampant in consumer audio. Not as much in pro audio, but the cable snakes are weaseling in to make rich, wannabe weekend warrior guitar players think that "tone is in the cables". It isn’t. It starts in the fingers. In HiFi it starts in the recording, and no magic cable is going to make a bad record sound more "liquidity, holographically 4 dimensional, effortless, with a blacker noise floor"...ever. |
dletch2"One day, a few will clue in to the fact that if all they chase are marketing claims and not real substantiated audible claims, then things will never get better and that they are part of the problem." What we hear are real substantiated claims this seems to be the problem you're religion seems to struggle with which as others have observed, explained, and noted is that you think only you're blind tests reveal what people hear! You're blind tests have shown to be flawed too and not scientific but I'm sure your feel safe in your religion. |
@dletch2 You seem to really have a problem with marketing? Ive spent the bulk of my working life in the advertising industry. At the best, I’m helping to inform people about something that can somehow help them in their day to day lives. At the worst, I’m trying to convince someone of the importance of something they have zero need for. Marketing claims, and the hype that goes along with them, are like water off a ducks back to me. |
At the worst, I’m trying to convince someone of the importance of something they have zero need for.Bingo. Truth really doesn't matter to a marketer that gets paid to convince people to buy stuff that gives no objective benefit. Thanks for being honest. |
@Perki - I dabbled in audio about 10 years ago. I had standard, crappy, 18 gauge cable from Home Depot for my stereo system. I bought some cheap Focals - and was told to upgrade cables, and I heard nothing different. I was 30. I was almost abused by "objective" statements of certainty that these tweaks would come together to be better. But they didn't. I was ridiculed for a crappy system. Or that I couldn't hear. I was discouraged, and thought, maybe it is me? And it turns out - it's not me. My hearing, at 40 years old, is exceptional. My system today which is upwards of 30k, isn't cheap or crappy. Can I say I have plugged in 10k cables into my system - no. But have I tried tweaks, yeah. Did any of them work? No... And, you raise a great point! It's not my money being spent if someone wants this vs. that! They can buy whatever they wish! It's the declarative statements made though, your system stinks unless you have product 1, 2, or 3 in it. That's where things I think go too far. Especially if it can't be objectively measured. Buy what makes you or others happy! But, i just ask they don't dump on others when they don't hear a difference. I'll close this out with two thoughts. The first is a statement that "I don't hear as well, but I listen better." - that's akin to saying I can't taste as well, but I eat better. WTH does that mean? And 2 - we do all agree that frequency response drops with age. But, thankfully, most music isn't above 10khz. But, it's isolating something - it's hearing that change, or where an object comes from, that too, is affected by age. (As we age, it's harder to hear in a crowded restaurant for example.) To the point of the OP - I think that's where things get harder to distinguish. And where I think statements being made with a lot of force, especially when it comes to someone new in this hobby, are detrimental to the hobby. I don't know - but - if you're still reading this - i do look forward to your thoughts on it. |
If your argument was ‘old people claim to still hear the highest frequencies’ you may have a point. But if you claim that a 70 year old audiophile with 40 or 50 years of experience in this hobby can’t make a judgement on cables anymore I have to disagree. A 65 year old golfer will know exactly if his new putter is any good because of his experience in using putters for over 40 or 50 years. |
hilde45/perkri - "perkri, I really enjoyed reading your list of tweaks and the rationales for each of them! I'm still learning, so can you tell me how you listen to each tweak to determine what difference it's made and whether that tweak is working or not? Serious question because the only thing that will keep me from going down a rabbit hole is a process by which I can know (a) whether a tweak has done something and (b) the degree and character of it. Thank you." hilde45, may I ask if you were referring to specific passages of specific tracks that perkri listens to in order to gauge difference or improvement with each change or tweak he makes? I ask because I have a similar request of perkri, if so : ) In friendship - kevin |
@edgewound Once again, you missed the point. I didn't say that I lied about what something did in order to achieve this. I didn't present anything in a way that said something did something it actually didn't - I worked to convince people to get something they didn't need. Big difference... Take a minute, and think about what you are reading in stead of simply reacting to it |
@jpeters568 My whole thing is "just try it". If it doesn't make a difference, then you are good! And because one person doesn't hear any difference, doesn't mean another who says they do are a victim of marketing. Quick story to illustrate my thoughts on hearing vs listening. I've been working on a speaker for a bit. A project I've been mulling about for a few months. Experimenting with a coax driver and a capacitor less crossover. Was trying to decide between two values of the resistor (8.2 ohm and 10 ohm). The high end was different. One went higher, but was missing the bit just below, the other didn't go as high but held the info up to that point. There was a distinct difference to my ears. I wanted an "unbiased" and "uninterested" opinion. I asked my 8yr old son to listen. Now, he has fresh ears and can hear a fly fart next door... He heard the clarity of the speakers, and commented on that. I asked him if he could describe what the differences were and if there was one he liked better as I A/B'd the speakers for him (Mono - L/R channels). He couldn't. I asked if he could hear a difference. He couldn't. Hearing is biology. Much like sense of taste is biology. Listening is a skill, something learned or taught. Like taste, being able to isolate nuances is very much a skill. Prior to Covid hitting, a friend was going through cancer treatment/surgery. He was unable to work for the better part of two years prior to Covid arriving. He was scheduled to have his final surgery but that was canceled due to the pandemic. He is a chef, and when Covid arrived, he got pretty down. I started fixing his stereo so he could listen to his vinyl collection. The transformation in his ability to listen for nuanced changes in a speaker build/tuning is astonishing. (I've built a lot of speakers for him). He is 64 and we often joke about the biological limits our age has put on our hearing. He is listening with far greater acuity than ever before. I feel like this is a journey, and not a destination. |
@kevn Distortions, I listen for distortions first. Silence in a system is a good thing when there is no signal. Turn it up with no signal with everything hooked up and turned on. The nature of the hiss will be a clue as to what is causing it. Sibilance is a useful one. Nina Simone has a certain way of presenting sssss's. And for whatever reason, when recorded this part of her singing can get quite shrill when played back. I listen for how much clarity there is in those parts. When listening to mids, I listen for transparency and how "bright" "crisp" they are. Also, they can be placed slightly higher or lower in the register. When listening to bass, I look for a sharp, tight bass. It can get muddy real easy. Try running a 60hz tone through the set up. Sit where you sit and listen to the timber of the bass. Then walk around the room. It will at some point become a droning mess, at other points it will almost vanish. There will me a place where it sounds really good. This is where room treatments come in to play. The room is not easy to control and as it has been said many times, it's the biggest part of the system. Try moving where you sit, try moving the speakers so you get the bass to sound the way it did when you walked around the room. A lifestyle system, where you are filling the room with sound, is a different kind of challenge. |
No 70 year old has a putter that is any good any more. Dismissing science because it doesn't fit nicely into your scheme is your own mistake to make. Science does not know everything but it's information creates a foundation on which to build further knowledge. In saying , " I don't know," you initiate the first step in the learning process. There is a ton of information about sound perception available that audiophile tend to side step. There is a book that is relatively easy for a lay person to understand, "An Introduction to the Psychology of Hearing" by Brian C J Moore. It is a very good place to start. |
mijostyn Dismissing science because it doesn't fit nicely into your scheme is your own mistake to make.It's odd how the self-proclaimed objectivists here get defensive when someone questions their holy "science." Challenging and questioning, collecting data and analyzing it, are all part of science. Blindly accepted common belief is not "science." Science does not know everything but it's information creates a foundation on which to build further knowledge.That's true, but what it thinks it knows is not infallible. |
Perkri, The best you can do is to get the bass right at the listening position by doing all those things you mention. As many here have noticed other than rebuilding your media room the best way to deal with the bass problem is by adding multiple subwoofers. Room treatments come into play at higher frequencies above 250 Hz. It is undeniable true that many fine systems are ruined by room acoustics. |
If you don't know what the word substantiated means, I don't think we can progress any further in this discussion. Good day. |
I listened some costly tweak product on youtube marketed by a well known company and it is EVIDENT that there is an audible effect.... Was that the one where he placed a large metal object (effectively) right against the microphone? Well duh! (not to you), of course that is going to make a difference! Or is it the one that had the shelved output that would not correlated to the communicated changes? All this is readily evident when you do correlated analysis of the audio samples. Not everything is as it seems. |
@jpeters568Excellent post! My own remark FIRST To perceive something especially a change which can be subtle, and characterize this change positively or negatively ask for some pre-requisite... We must use some cd or vinyl whe know very much by heart already We must choose a recording with these characteristic: natural acoustic of the instrument sound, and human voices first with piano or orchestra or few acoustic instrument... No pop, no rock, Why? Because changes being detected they will ask to be judged by reference points... No commercial music sound natural, all is modified, and it is the TIMBRE natural experience which will be our signpost ALL ALONG the journey.... Distortions and sibilance are always detected easily if we use a known reference point: acoustic natural timbre in non amplified, or non electrical instruments and especially voices... SECOND Nothing can be clearly perceived and understood without a CONCEPT to seize it consciously and describe it... Then we must read about acoustic ...And If there is 3 working embeddings dimensions to modify and make cleaner with controls settings and devices : mechanical , electrical, and acoustical... The most important one is acoustical... Acoustic of a room is so powerful even experience audiophiles here underestimated it.... The room is not easy to control and as it has been said many times, it’s the biggest part of the system.He is right absolutely.... For acoustic controls there is no easy road.... It takes time... this is the bad news... The good news is it is possible to ststematically afress it in a dedicated room without investing money only by hearing experiments with only homemade devices but it will not be esthetical... The living room will ask for more money and even more difficulties because of the limitations you can impose in a living room... The most useful piece in a system is not any piece of gear it is a dedicated room.... If someone is not being limited by money and he is so proud of his gear that his pleasure is boasting about it, his experience cannot help us...My system value is 500 dollars and i have hear better system than mine, it is easy to look for them on youtube....But if they are better in the absolute concretely it is an another story which can be telled only by acoustic means... In ratio S.Q. /price my system is one if not the best i ever listen to.... The goal is reaching audiophile experience for ordinary mortal with very limited money... Then a dedicated room is the greatest gift.... By the way acoustic treatment with passive materials is mandatory but in a small room had his limits.... We must also controls timing of the wavefronts and ACTIVE means of controls could help tremendously: Resonators, ionizers, Schumann generators, BUT especially powerful : a mechanical equalizer based on Helmholtz acoustic resonators principles....An Helmholtz resonator can adress all acoustic problems in his own way: imaging, timbre, soundstage, listener envelopment factor in relation to sound width of the source... Why? Because a room is a very tigth pressure zone, like a set of strings on a violin....Each pipes and tubes resonastors introduce a different pressure which will damp AND enhance different frequencies...The set of tubes will be like a silent orchestra on his own, and the location of tubes and each pipes would be important and even the orientation of the variable neck position in the room linked to each pipes and tubes... With a mechanical equalizer you modify the room for your speakers with your ears to control the fine tuning process... An electronic equalizer is different and use a mic and is valid measure are for a millimeter precise location not for a human body location in the room...It can be a useful tool but cannot replace acoustic control by only itself.... A mechanical equalizer is PART of the room... It is an active tool modifiable through time... It is not esthetical for sure.... But some are more crafty than me... This is my mechanical equalizer that teach me this: one could destruct acoustically a room/system or revive it completely with an audible effect very powerful with only a straw of very thin diameter, and short lenght at the right location or not....Then changing an amplifier will never be able to compete with this straw save going from a shitty amplifier to a better one... Nothing less will compare.... Acoustic is the key to audio experience if you had already choosen relatively BASIC good gear...But chosing good gear is the easy part of the journey... The rest is marketing ignorance voluntary or unvolontary.... This is my experience.... |
No i listen to ALL the video on youtube with many customers...I listened some costly tweak product on youtube marketed by a well known company and it is EVIDENT that there is an audible effect.... Simple... But an audible effect is one thing, and not the story... Remember: i personaly NEVER BUY "tweaks" I created my own at NO COST.... Negating an audible effect is not my way...I will let sunday club scientist debunking some unreal and sometimes some real audible effects.... Investigating to create a better effect at no cost is my way....i prefer my listening experiments... It is better to teach people how to fish without complicated means or tools than to use blindtest to criticize any means or tool for fishing without teaching people how to fish at NO COST....Some effects created by costly tweaks are real.... Negating all audible effects is non productive.... I prefer to assume the effect is there and VERIFYING IT at no cost....Improving my audio system is my goal, not a pretense to science with blindtest.... I am not against blindtest... Why not? Especially for costly product... But this does not solve the problem of HOW to improve at no cost my audio system... I prefer sometimes assuming that something is real, some acoustical audible effect and trying to replicate it at NO COST... why contesting in principle ALL testimonies like placebos? The goal of a statiscal experiment using blindtest cannot be useful for me, save for particular spectacular costly product... It is not a general solution for customers listening their music and wanting to improve their S.Q..... Making my own listening experiment at no cost or at low cost is more useful and fun...Speaking about the results in my case is not promoting a brand i use only homemade or very low cost products... Simple.... Nobody learn to fish blindfolded... |
I generally don’t read much on this site. Mostly because the topics seem a little silly. In this case, everyone likes what they like, almost never the same as someone else on a regular basis. I work for a company that requires a hearing test every year. My position doesn’t require the test, but I do it anyway just to see how my hearing is doing. I am 71 and think my hearing is great. Wrong, during the last 5 years, my hearing has degraded considerably. Not for regular hearing, but for the higher notes, dropped lots. I hear base just fine, but the highs stop at 14db. I’m told that is normal for my age. The question becomes how much do you spend to improve the sounds you can’t hear? My digital system now, sounds as good as my analog system did years ago. Buy and listen to what sounds good to you. Don’t argue the point, it’s a futile argument that can never be solved. |
‘Sibilance is a useful one. Nina Simone has a certain way of presenting sssss's. And for whatever reason, when recorded this part of her singing can get quite shrill when played back. I listen for how much clarity there is in those parts. When listening to mids, I listen for transparency and how "bright" "crisp" they are. Also, they can be placed slightly higher or lower in the register.” - perkri Thanks very much for this perkri - yes I also find differences in bass and highs the easiest to distinguish - it’s the mids that aren’t easy and take time. Besides Nina Simone for sibilance, are there specific sections of specific tracks or songs that are your go-to’s whenever you are listening for differences after a change of cable or tweak? The parts that most clearly show difference in sound quality? Thanks again! In friendship - kevin |
I think we can all agree that dogs have superior hearing. I have 3 dogs and five systems. The dogs have free range in the house. When I put on music they are free to come and go. My observations are that all three dogs come and lay down and listen to my TAD CR-1s and YG Acoustic carmels Two dogs come and listen to my Audio physics tempos and my sonus faber cremona Ms. Only one dog comes and listens to my Vienna acoustic Mozarts. And if I switch the direction of my cables, the dogs just go outside..... |
@kevn I have a couple of tracks I listen to for mids. Leonard Cohen - A Thousand Kisses Deep He has a deep voice normally, but it's particularly deep on this track. The upper register of his voice is what I listen to. I listen for how open it is. Sade - Pearls She has a wide range in her singing on this track. Starts dark and rich and goes to some lovely highs. I listen for how clearly the middle part of that comes through Rockers HiFi - Going Under Like most electronic music, it has some extremes. Singer again has a dark register. I listen for how well the upper range of his voice comes through. Bill Charlap - Stardust Shirley Horns voice has a ton of air in this recording. I listen for how well it "floats" above the instruments. And, of course, anything Ben Webster :) |
jasonbourne52 You can hear a pin drop. Wow! That is proof to you, I presume, that you have perfect hearing. Go get a test. You will be surprised at the middle frequencies you do not hear, much less the ones above about 200 cps that a dropped pin makes; however, we can just turn the volume up a whole lot and hear stuff that is normally silent to us. even if with a highly different frequency curve than a baby, or young teen. I bet if you ask a bunch of tweens if they use a ringtone out of teh frequency of adults, you will find some a=who can demonstrate this to you. This ring allows them to check messages in class, without allowing the teacher to hear it. |
